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What if play isn’t just for fun… but one of the most powerful tools you have for connecting with your child and shaping their emotional world?

In this eye-opening episode, I’m joined by child and family therapist Georgie Wisen-Vincent, who’s here to walk us through the critical role of play in building trust, confidence, and lifelong resilience in our little ones.

Press play to discover: why play is crucial for your child’s emotional and psychological development, how to become a more intentional partner during playtime, how to help kids process big feelings (even the ones they can’t express), how to use play to navigate tricky behaviors, and why stepping into your child’s inner world can be healing (for both of you!).

If you’re a parent, you want to better understand the kids in your life, or you’re simply craving more playfulness in your day to day, then press play now… this one’s for you.

About Georgie Wisen-Vincent

Georgie Wisen-Vincent, LMFT, RPT-S, is a nationally recognized play therapy expert and co-founder (with Tina Payne Bryson) and head of faculty for The Play Strong Institute, a continuing education and training organization for professionals and parents. She completed advanced study in play therapy at the University of Roehampton London and is also a child, adolescent, and family psychotherapist in private practice in Los Angeles.

In this episode we chat about:

• The surprising story of how she became a leading expert in play therapy (2:22)
• Why play is so vital for emotional and physiological development (4:10)
• How to become a more intentional play partner (and why it changes everything!) (6:27)
• Simple but powerful ways to build deep trust with your child (11:27)
• How to help your kid express emotions through play (even the big, messy ones!)  (17:09)
• What every parent needs to know about fostering confidence and resilience in their children (20:08)
• How to transition kids smoothly from play to less enjoyable activities (23:41)
• What our little ones *really* need from us to grow into well adapted adults (29:24)
• How to decode the emotional messages hidden in your child’s play (34:12)
• Do you really have to make everything a game? (The answer will surprise you!) (36:37)
• Why stepping into your child’s play world can transform your connection (43:17)
• The one book that she believes every child should read (47:01)

Episode resources:

• Mastering Your Mean Girl by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Open Wide by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Comparisonitis by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Time Magic by Melissa Ambrosini and Nick Broadhurst (book)
• Georgie Wisen-Vincent (Instagram)
• The Way of Play: Using Little Moments of Big Connection to Raise Calm and Confident Kids by Tina Payne Bryson and Georgie Wisen-Vincent (book)
• Playstrong Institute (website)
• The Center of Connection (website)
• How To Consciously Parent With Love with Dr Tina Bryson (podcast)
• Dibs in Search of Self: Personality Development in Play Therapy by Virginia M. Axline (book)

Prefer To Read?

The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy.

Melissa: [00:00:00] The Melissa Ambrosini Show. Welcome to the Melissa Ambrosini Show. I’m your host, Melissa bestselling author of Mastering Your Mean Girl, open, wide, comparisonitis and Time Magic. And I’m here to remind you that love is sexy, healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word. Each week I’ll be getting up close and personal with thought leaders from around the globe, as well as your weekly dose of motivation so that you can create epic change.

Your own life and become the best version of yourself possible. Are you ready? Beautiful. Beautiful. Hey, beautiful. Welcome back to the show. I’m so excited about this episode because I absolutely love learning how to be a better parent. And after this conversation, you are gonna walk away as a better parent.

Which is so exciting. Now, for those of you that have never heard of Georgie, she is a nationally recognized play [00:01:00] therapy expert and co-founder with Tina Payne Bryson, who has also been on this show. She’s amazing. I’ll link to her episodes in the show notes, and she’s the head of faculty for the Play Strong Institute.

A continuing education and training organization for professionals and parents. She completed advanced study in play therapy and is also a child, adolescent and family psychotherapist in private practice in la. Now, for everything that we mention in today’s episode, you can check out in the show notes and that’s over@melissaambrosini.com slash.

6, 6 3. Now grab your pen and paper. Let’s dive in, and let’s become better, more conscious, amazing parents.

Georgie, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you here. But before we dive in, can you tell us what you had for breakfast this morning? 

Georgie: Oh my goodness. I think I [00:02:00] had like a bagel with cream cheese and cucumbers on top. Maybe some chives. I can’t remember. It’s been like a whole 

Melissa: day’s gone by. It feels like years.

Yes, you are at the end of your day and I’m at the start of my day, so I love that. I love that we can connect no matter where we are in the world. So thank you for joining us. 

Georgie: Yeah, thank you for having me. From over here in Los Angeles, California. 

Melissa: Now I wanna hear, before we go deep, I wanna hear how you got into this work.

How did this all unfold for you? 

Georgie: Oh my goodness. So I am a play therapist and you know, a counselor that’s worked with children and parents for a very long time and I really got my start kind of working in group homes and foster care homes for children who were in. Sort of, you know, between places and needing stable families and things like that.

And one of the things that was, that I was drawn to was working with children who were coming from rough places. [00:03:00] And I realized as we were, I was doing this work, that play is such an amazing, creative, nourishing way of reaching children that have experienced hard things. So whether we’re talking about children from, you know, strong, healthy families.

Or children who’ve been going through difficulties Play is a way of reaching them and helping them grow. And so I went all the way over to London to do a degree in master’s degree in play therapy and then it brought me back to LA where I’ve been based for a long time and sort of ran into one of my heroes in the field.

Tina Payne, Bryson quite by accident, and got to start working with her in Pasadena and suddenly. We were writing a book together, which I’m so happy to be celebrating with you here. 

Melissa: I love Tina. I’m such a huge fan of her work. She has been on the podcast. I’ll link to that episode in the show notes for anyone who wants to go listen to it.

She is a pioneer in this space, in [00:04:00] this conscious parenting space. So. Good on you for collaborating together and writing a book together. She is amazing and you’re amazing. Aw, thank you. And I’m so excited to talk about play because I have two little kids. And one of the most beautiful things about having children is you get to play, you have an excuse to play and you say that before children can talk.

They talk through play. So let’s unpack why this early form of communication is so vital for children’s emotional and physiological development. Like why is this so important that they play? 

Georgie: Yes. I’m the mom of a 10-year-old myself, and so I remember so clearly having my baby and seeing all of these things that I’d read about and learned about the research as a professional [00:05:00] long before I had my child.

And I remember him picking up like nesting cups on the floor as he was laying sort of on his back on a mat and holding them up. Not only showing them to me and looking into my eyes and wanting to share this magnificent accomplishment with me, but also learning how to bring his hands together and, and grasp the cup with two hands and things that are just made major milestones for our little ones.

Then they go on to toddle and play in sandboxes and get in tussles with each other when you have two of them and all of these things. And they’re figuring out their world as they explore it, and they’re learning so much so quickly as they’re engaging with their environment and the materials around them and sharing that with their primary caregivers us.

And so it’s probably the most powerful. [00:06:00] Medium that we’ve found in child development and in parenting to be able to reach our kids and to be able to understand their worlds, it really provides a window into what makes them tick, what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling. How they’re developing across all these different levels.

It really is an amazing natural language of children that develops even before verbal language comes online. 

Melissa: Yeah. Beautiful. So what does it look like? Like how can we play with our children more? What does that actually look like? 

Georgie: Yeah, on a daily basis, I would say the average parent is just like, really, you want me to get down on the floor and running after kids and just trying to get their shoes on and get them out the door and get them all the places we need to go, and then come home and strip it all off again and you know, get ready for a meal and do the dishes.

And it’s kind of the last thing that we really feel like doing, and that’s me included when [00:07:00] we’ve had a long day and we just. Don’t really feel like playing, but it’s often when we feel the least like playing that our kids most need us to. You know those days when you just don’t know when the afternoon’s gonna end or the times when you’re going through something as a family or your child is going through sort of a developmental struggle and they’re about to go through a leap, but you’re not there yet and it feels really hard.

These are the times that play can really help us the most. Something that we can tap into as a way of reaching our kids sometimes when they’re hard to reach and it doesn’t have to take all day long, even though when they’re really little, maybe like the ages of your kids right now, it feels like play never ends.

They’re constantly getting into things and we’re trying to take a break from all the play that they’re doing. When our, as our kids get older, it’s nice just to set aside a few minutes to be together and spend quality time and [00:08:00] do things that we both enjoy together. It doesn’t have to be, you know, sort of pretend play all day or something, and it doesn’t have to involve a lot of expensive toys and, you know, the latest slime and, you know, all this kinetic sand and, you know, all these really cool toys.

I have all of them. I, I go out and I love. Shopping for the latest new thing and sharing it with my own son. That’s fun. But it doesn’t have to. It could just be with cardboard boxes and you know, leftover paper around the house or could be just mixing up a batch of cupcakes or whatever it is that you like to do together with your kids.

That’s play. Play is different for every family. 

Melissa: I think for me, I wanna share some examples ’cause I want people to get some ideas, but. For us, it’s dancing and music. That’s an amazing way. My daughter is obsessed with that song. She’ll be coming round the mountain and she’s like, mommy put it on, mama put it on.

And so last [00:09:00] night before dinner, we needed like a pattern break. And in the Steiner world they used songs to transition from different activities and it was getting to dinner time and I could tell we needed to like raise our vibration in the home. Otherwise there may have been some, you know, meltdowns.

And so I put on the song and I just started galloping around the island bench singing the song. And at the start she kind of looked at me like, what are you doing mom? And then she joined in and then Papa joined in. He was holding Prince, my full month old. And it was all of us just around the island bench for so long, and it was so funny.

We were just laughing and it really did raise the energy and the vibration in the home. So I do that a lot with my daughter, especially in the car. We will blast the music and we will sing together and have a little boogie in the [00:10:00] car. And then also I love like getting down on the floor and like being a dog.

Meowing like a cat. Like I’ll hide behind a wall and I’ll just like go and like come around, like especially in the morning if she hasn’t seen me and I know she’s up when she comes around the corner, I’ll pretend to be a cat or something like that. Just little things like that. And of course, like I go into her world and I sit in her playroom and I let her guide me.

Like I just sit there. Like this morning we woke up before everybody else and we were just playing in her playroom and I just sat there and she’s like, do you want a smoothie? Like a pretend smoothie? And I was like, sure. And she like whipped me up a smoothie. And then she’s like, do you want some pizza?

And I was like, yes, I want pizza. So she made me pizza in her kitchen. And I just sat there like for however long it was like in her world, and it was so beautiful. And we know that the science shows we need to fill our children [00:11:00] up. And this doesn’t mean five hours of being a cat. I’m not saying that 10 minutes of undivided not on your phone, full presence will fill your children up and.

They are going to be so much happier when you give them that, and it’s so simple and it really makes such a difference to their life. So I love this conversation so much. Can you talk about how this intentional play builds trust between the parent and the child? 

Georgie: Yeah. Such a good question and I think I have to.

Sort of hand it to my co-author, Tina Bryson. We’ve written this book The Way of Play Together, which brings out seven really simple strategies that can help parents connect with their kids, reduce some of the everyday hassles that come with parenting. That we just, you know, we, we, we wish [00:12:00] were things that were weren’t so difficult.

We could just make those things easier with our kids. We can fill their cups, as you just mentioned. The other thing that I’ve learned from Tina, because she’s this expert on the brain and how our kids are developing through their mind and their relationships, is that when we take the time and they really get to see our interest and that we’re sort of lighting up when we’re with them, that it also lights up similar parts of their brain too at the same time.

And what’s happening is they’re getting little doses. Little repetitions, which is really how the brain gets built from the bottom to the top. They’re taking in all this sensory information, especially what they see us doing, and it, it turns on these mirror neurons in their brain. We talk about that in the third or fourth chapter.

We’re talking about making yourself a mirror. So when you see, this is one of the strategies in the book when you see your child getting, you know, [00:13:00] for example, getting down on the floor and you know. Banging two cars together or something, if there’s some quality of that that you can share with them. It’s as simple as just mirroring some element of their body, face, or voice while they’re doing something that they really enjoy or they want you to see.

They’re banging the two cars together. It’s not enough to break the cars, you know, they’re just pretending that the cars are crashing or maybe the car starts zooming around the room or something like that. If you just use your body. And kind of mimic something that they’re doing without copying them.

Exactly. Because we know that copying is a little bit too much mirroring. You know, kids are like, don’t do it just like me. I’m gonna show you how I wanna do it. Something about that turns them off. But when we just choose a quality and we might make the sound effect like near, you know, it’s, it sounds so simple, but really what we’re doing is we’re creating repetitions in the brain and we’re laying down.[00:14:00] 

A memory of us being there when they were making discoveries and showing us what they know how to do, which they love, you know, to, to build their confidence and to see their confidence growing in the way we look at them. The science shows us that mirroring is like one of the most important things we can do while we play with our kids.

It’s just one tip in this great book that I got to write with Tina. 

Melissa: I love that. Could you share some of the other seven strategies? 

Georgie: Yeah. So not only can we non-verbally mirror what our kids are doing in play and that makes them feel more connected to us, and it sends ’em the message that they’re loved and, and they can turn on our interest and, and it can also help us when we’re not feeling so interested.

Mirroring helps us, you know, convey to our partner. Whether that’s our child that we’re playing with or our spouse or partner, you know, our, our grownup partner or maybe a, a good friend or, or one of our family members or something. Mirroring actually [00:15:00] signifies closeness in relationships. So we can non-verbally share that kind of closeness and connection, but we can also do it with our words.

So if you see your child, for example, my 10-year-old son the other day, he was bouncing on a trampoline. And he was trying to see how high he could bounce, and so this is a great opportunity to sort of, you know, mimic some aspect of his body, face or voice. Of course, I could be like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe how high you can bounce.

Look at you go that when, when we think out loud with our kids, when we try and guess at their intention behind what they’re doing, to be able to say like, it looks like you’re competing with yourself to see how high you can actually go. It looks like you’re trying to bounce higher than yesterday. It gives our kids this, you know, bit of communication that I get, what’s going on inside your mind, and that’s associated with research [00:16:00] call on Mentalization, that when we can read our kids’ mind.

That they know, that we know them, that they feel seen on a deeper level. And it also teaches them how to understand the contents of someone else’s mind, develop empathy and their own ability to reflect on others and their own behavior. And I know we all want our kids to be able to reflect on their behavior, to be able to stop themselves and say, whoa, maybe I’m bouncing a little too high.

I was trying to challenge myself and bounce higher than I I’ve ever done before. If I bounce even higher than this, I might fall off and bump my head, so I should probably slow myself down and learn to regulate. That’s sort of the key to emotion regulation and body regulation as well. So imagine how much you can accomplish just by enjoying play with your child, but even if you don’t typically enjoy it.

We can get so much more out of it in terms of the skills that we’re sharing with our kids too. 

Melissa: [00:17:00] Yeah, I love that so much. And I can just see how this just builds that trust and builds that deeper connection. What else? What else is there? 

Georgie: So, another really cool strategy that we share sort of in the middle of the book is about being able to bring emotions to life when you play.

So a lot of parents that I talk to really struggle with pretend or imaginative play, and if you gave them the choice of what they’d like to play with their kids, they’re like. Gimme blocks to build with. Let’s drop pictures. We love singing and dancing, as you described with your child. I’d love to go for a walk, take the dog for a walk together and go to the park.

I love seeing my kid play around on the playground or pushing them on the swing. Please don’t make me act silly characters and you know, put on voices and I don’t wanna be a rock star with my kid. I don’t wanna do, you know, all these things that require us to kind of step up and play a character. Or to [00:18:00] follow our kids’ direction when we’re playing with them.

So our kid might say, you know, for example, do the laugh like an evil witch, like cackle, like an evil witch. And I’ll pretend to be the the prince or the princess that’s locked in the tower and then you do the cackle and they say, that’s not how an evil witch cackles. And it’s like, wait a minute, I’ve seen Wizard of Oz.

I know exactly what this is supposed to sound like. Right? Our kids actually correct us because they love being the directors of their play. And it also gives us an opportunity to act it sometimes the way they want us to act it because they want to learn something about what it’s like to embody emotions.

So they may want you to cackle like the evil witch and it inspires a tiny bit. Not real fear, but a little bit of like, oh my gosh, I’m worried because the evil witch might come and try and get me to eat the poison apple or something. And they’re actually experiencing. Real emotions in the body that helps them build resilience and learn what to do [00:19:00] when they’re having, you know, the actual experience of fear or anxiety or worry or something.

But play gives ’em an opportunity to have a safe distance from it and to know that it’s not real, it’s just pretend. So one of the great values of being able to pretend with your kid, even if it’s just, you know, meowing like a cat around the corner or something like that. Is they get the opportunity to practice dealing with emotions in a safe situation where they know you’re not a real evil, you’re not a real evil witch that’s gonna hurt them.

You could pretend you know that there’s some kind of problem that the evil witch is presenting them with this, you know, come and eat my apple dear, and then they have to figure out what to do about that situation. It’s just a really safe, contained way for them to practice dealing with emotions where they get to solve problems over and over again really quickly as a kind of practice for the main event when they really have to deal with that [00:20:00] emotion in a, in a real situation.

Melissa: Yeah, I love that. So it really does allow them to practice the problem solving. It also allows them to build things like confidence and resilience. Talk to that. And is there anything else that play allows them to harness. 

Georgie: Yeah, so getting into the problem solving a little bit more. You know, we want our kids to be really efficient and calm problem solvers, right?

If my child gets into a little bit of a, a scuffle or a conflict with a friend at school. He actually goes to school on a farm. So they may both, you know, two kids may both wanna use the same shovel at the same time because they’re digging up a garden bed or something. You know, kids find themselves in these little conflicts all the time, actually, you know, throughout the day.

That’s part of being human. So being able to deal with and manage conflict, but also to be able to scaffold our own abilities [00:21:00] when it comes to being human beings and trying to figure out. What do I do about this problem, especially when it involves another person, is something that they can also practice with us.

And so using a strategy, you know, like we talk about being able to bring emotions to life, not only are we highlighting the emotions that come up when we’re in problems together, but we might be able to find playful solutions to them as well. Even when it’s just like we’re trying to get a chore done, you know, so there’s a, let’s say there’s a, there’s a, there’s an issue with the family that we all can’t, you know, decide on the same meal that we want for dinner or something like that, to be able to find playful solutions to these problems.

You know, you might say, I don’t know what we should have. Maybe we should all make stone soup together, or something like that. And it starts out with this really playful idea. That can help our kids pivot through conflicts and problems that come up on an [00:22:00] everyday basis. Play might be the answer that we’ve been looking for, but it’s often the last thing we think of because it feels like a really serious situation.

So for example, if I’m trying to get my kid to brush their teeth, we’re all really tired before bedtime and it’s time to brush teeth and you’re just supposed to get in bed and I wish you would just go, but my kid, instead of brushing teeth is like hiding behind the shower curtain and all I can see are their toes.

I might take the toothbrush and say, well, I’m not seeing Jack’s teeth. I’m gonna have to brush his toes tonight and sort of dive in. Okay, here I come. And he might peek, you know, from behind the shower curtain and he might go, no, not my toes. Okay, you can have my teeth. And then I might say. Oh my gosh, look at all the broccoli that was left in there.

I’m gonna have to get all those individual little pieces. It’s like diving for broccoli. I’m gonna have to find each and every one of them. And then suddenly, you know, I’m like the, I’m gonna tickle that broccoli out. Things like that. It, it’s, it’s sounds like [00:23:00] super, I don’t know, challenging at times to even try and connect with our kids around play.

When we’re tired and we’re all ready to go to bed and things like that, and we don’t necessarily wanna amp them all the way up. We wanna help them modulate their emotional intensity and like keep them calm, that wind them down before they go to bed. But sometimes play can be used at just the right intensity to shift them out of a.

Problematic moment and into more cooperation. We call that the playful pivot. So it’s something that parents can use when you’re in a bit of a pickle with your kid. Just need them to get something done. 

Melissa: Yes. I love that. I’ve used it. It works. It’s amazing. I love the way that I parent, but there’s one area where I would really like to change, and it’s when I’m tired, it’s when I have had enough.

I’m just like, I just wanna get to bed. Maybe she doesn’t wanna cooperate. [00:24:00] Maybe I need to breastfeed my baby. Like as all things happening, mama just wants to go to sleep and I border a line, use bribery to get her to do things. Like I’ll say, okay, like I’ve asked about 10 times. And if you don’t get in the bath or if you don’t get brush your teeth, I’m gonna have to take this away.

And I don’t like doing it. And every time I say it, I’m like. This doesn’t feel good, but I don’t know what else to do. But you’ve just reminded me of this playful pivot and to use that instead. So what is your advice for someone like me? Because I would never ever say, if you don’t do this, you don’t get ice cream.

Well, firstly, we don’t need ice cream, but like I don’t do that, but I’m like, darling, I’ve asked you now quite a few times, if you don’t get in the bath, I’m gonna have to take whatever away for the day tomorrow. What are your thoughts on that? I don’t like doing it. It doesn’t feel good and I don’t wanna [00:25:00] do it, but I need some other tools like I’m so, I’m tired in the moment, I just need another tool.

Georgie: Yes, that there’s, there’s a million things that might might help in that situation, but I find that we become our least flexible, our most inflexible, when we’re stressed, we’re tired, and we just wanna make something happen. Like, I just want you to transition. I just want you in the pause. Yes, exactly. Like transitions can be one of the hardest things to get our kids to do, and often I find.

That it’s when kids are in a mode of play that they don’t wanna do a transition to a less preferred activity. Like, why would I go from playing with all my stuffies to getting in the bath and going to bed where I’m not gonna be with you anymore, and I have to say goodnight to all my stuffies, right? So I often think that maybe the antidote is to bring the play with us.

So for example, if. I’m trying to get my kid to come to the grocery store with me, but he is out in the backyard looking [00:26:00] for bugs with his magnifying glass. I might say, Jack, do you think that maybe we might find bugs in the produce aisle of the grocery store? Like it’s possible that we can take the play with us and it’s literally the last thing I really feel like doing.

I’m gonna be very honest with you. I don’t want to tap into his imaginative brain. 

Melissa: And you’ve probably got a timeframe too, you know, so you’re like, come on, we gotta be there. We need to, yes. 

Georgie: Just get shoes on and go. So, you know, the, the idea that you might find a bug in the produce aisle where all they keep all the fruits and vegetables isn’t an attractive look for that, that supermarket.

So I would probably say, you know. Grownups don’t want bugs in the supermarket. We should go and try and see if there are any there. We wanna make sure that we help them out [00:27:00] of the store. So the, the concept is really to kind of tap into something that might be a little bit quirky or unexpected or even surprising that would hook your child’s attention and get them to make that transition from maybe it’s high energy activity, maybe it’s high interest.

Activity and you’re asking them to go into a whole different way of being. How can we use that playful energy and like redirect it into the lane that we want them to go? So I don’t know exactly how to solve your getting into bed situation, but that might involve bringing all the stuffies with us into bed and tucking each and every one of them in.

Telling them the bedtime story, even though you end up, you know, removing them after your child has fallen asleep, you’re like, you know, un piling all the stuffies around them or something like that. And it’s just an unusual, surprising, highly creative, very flexible solution that nobody would’ve thought [00:28:00] of.

But somehow you’ve managed to tap into it right at that bedtime hour. And maybe it actually, ironically makes it a little bit easier. It might save you 10 minutes. It might save you yelling. It might save you. It turning into this whole pattern that you really don’t wanna develop with your kid, especially around bedtime, which is, you know, so nice when it can be loving and snuggly and easier.

Melissa: Totally. You’ve just inspired me so much to use. More playful pivots, playful transitions, whatever you wanna call them and Yeah, like in the Steiner world, it’s, they use song to transition. So you’ve inspired me to do that. I literally just forgot about it. And yeah, I want that time of the evening to be playful and, and most of the time it is, but some of the time it’s not.

And it takes me thinking on my feet very quickly. Okay, what can I do creatively here? And like, it’s [00:29:00] probably only gonna take an extra five minutes, but like you said, we’ll save maybe a 15 minute meltdown. Or like just tantrum or whatever. So it’s really powerful stuff and such great reminders. So I love this so much.

I’m definitely making notes. I’m gonna tell my husband, this is what we’re doing from now on, because it’s really powerful. It’s really powerful. What else? What else is there? How else can we support our children to grow into these well adapted adults? 

Georgie: Um, another strategy that just popped into my head as you were talking about, you know, instilling resilience in our kids is keeping in mind that sometimes the reason that transitions can be so hard for them is because they have to go through multiple transitions in a single transition from one thing to another.

And they also have to learn how to manage all the sensory information that’s [00:30:00] coming in through their bodies, especially when they’re little. Processing all the stuff that’s coming in through their five senses. And actually now I understand from occupational therapists, there are eight senses. So even the stuff that we can’t see that’s coming at them, the, the stuff that we can’t hear that’s coming at them, the, the feeling of like stomping, you know, away from us when we’ve asked them to do something and we need to bring them back.

That’s giving them proprioceptive input from their feet all the way through their muscles and up to their brains. And we have a strategy that really tries to harness kids learning about their bodies and their sensory systems as we play with them, but also in these moments of overwhelm where the intensity of what they’re doing is so high.

Like they might be, you know, swinging a. A foam bat around and suddenly it’s getting really close to brother or sister’s face [00:31:00] or something and they’re just not aware of it because, you know, they sort of become like these little race car bodies and they don’t know how to necessarily gauge the distance between them and another person.

Or they don’t know how to like kind of rein themselves in. You know, when you’re like, okay, you’re out a 10 right now and I need you to be more like a four ’cause we’re about to walk in somewhere quiet and I need your inside voice. Our kids don’t, don’t just come equipped to modulate all of their, you know, what, what’s going on inside their bodies and how that gets, that information gets sent to their brain so that we can make sense of it.

So dialing intensity is, you know, the, the fourth strategy in the book, and it’s an opportunity for us to help our kids learn how to tune in. To what’s going on inside themselves at a felt level or a sensory level too. So taking that example of my kid just kind of swinging the foam bat around, or maybe intentionally kind of swinging it too close to [00:32:00] my face or something like that, you know, I might go, whoa, you almost got me.

You know, you were just this far away from my face. I wonder if you could swing it medium instead of hard. They might go, what medium? You usually tell me gentle. It’s really hard for kids, especially when they’re like toddlers and preschool age to go from, you know, I’m going, you know, really going hog wild with this thing and now I’m supposed to be gentle and used, gentle hands, like you’ll see their intensity amp up again really, really fast because the sheer, you know, enjoyment, the sheer pleasure that they’re getting and also the learning that could happen in that moment.

Is prevented or, or we, we stop it in its tracks when we tell them just to stop doing that, that when we take the foam bat away. And that’s, I think, the impetus many parents have. And even I had, when my son was really little, was like, you can’t carry around this big [00:33:00] stick, you know, in the gardens because you’re hitting all the, the plants and flowers with it.

And when my son was just trying to, you know, engage with, you know, what’s around him, all this beautiful nature. He didn’t realize that he was hurting flowers and plants and things like that. So I could take the stick away, or I could take the foam bat away, or I could help my son or my child learn to change the intensity.

So I might say, Ooh, you know, maybe you wanna swing it and maybe hit this pillow instead of swinging it toward me. This could be my shield. We could have a little bit of a, you know, a back and forth here, and I can actually use my own body. My, my words to help my child become aware of where they may be running too high or the energy levels too high, and help them actually learn to gradually match the situation, like turning a big dial of sensory input for them so we can actually teach our kids how to take in sensory information, make sense of it.[00:34:00] 

And decide what they’re doing with their body instead of getting too loud, too fast, too angry, too rough, all of those things that don’t always fit the situation so nicely. 

Melissa: How can parents recognize the emotional messages that children are expressing through their play? Especially when big feelings are hidden beneath the surface?

Georgie: Ooh, so sometimes just tuning into the stories children are telling when they play, you know, like. You know, we’ve had wildfires in Los Angeles. This is just more of an extreme example, and I know that where you are, there are bush fires, and this is a really common thing that we have to deal with, with climate changes and variations and weather and things like that.

So we had these wildfires come through and we noticed that all of these kids are now suddenly playing with themes about fire or creating fireproof houses and things like that. So you can tune in, I think, and pay attention [00:35:00] to some of the, the messages or the themes that are coming up in children’s play, whether that’s, you know, somebody’s in trouble and they need rescuing.

Like, for example, Tina tells a story of when her boys were little, they used to love creating zip lines using yarn and string in the house. So they’d tie one to the top of the stairs and one to a doorknob at the bottom. And they’d hang super guys that may be like, you know, hanging onto the zip line like this, and they’d say, okay, this one needs help.

Like, mom, you’ve gotta come up here, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta do something. Bring one of the other guys, you know, he needs help to get down. And then not only tuning into the story, like there’s a, there’s somebody in trouble that needs rescuing. What can we do? Also deciding what is my character gonna do about that?

And maybe sharing some emotion as you just asked, Melissa, sharing some emotion about that. I don’t know how to get up there. How am I gonna get up there? That’s a long way to go to sort of add to the [00:36:00] character a little bit and to bring out the emotions, but also to give your kids an opportunity to tell the story.

And you’re, you’re doing what we call narrating to integrate. So helping your child move toward integration. Is highlighting the emotions that are coming out in the play, but also paying attention to the themes of what are they trying to solve here and what lessons could they learn in the process. So maybe Tina’s son would’ve said something like, oh no, no, I’ll send a guy down to get you and I’ll show you the way.

So they become these incredible helpers, and that’s something that Children’s Ho television program hosts called Mr. Rogers here in America, used to talk about kids. Are driven to be the helpers in their stories, and it gives them the sense that they can not only solve problems, but learn to help others and themselves.

And I think we all want strong, compassionate, empathic people that we’re raising [00:37:00] that will eventually be adults who would turn and help somebody who’s in, who’s in trouble. You know, somebody who’s tripped and fallen in the street or something. I want my kids to be the one that’s gonna go and help them up, rather than the one that sort of, you know.

Tries to stifle a laugh at their expense or something. So just practicing almost these, these life lessons or, or these character qualities, these character traits that we’re also trying to instill in our kids are many of the ways that we can engage in kids’ play just looking at the stories that they tell when we play together.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. Yep. Do you feel like we should play. In every interaction. Do you feel like we should literally bring play to everything we do? I’d love your thoughts. Like should I literally make everything play? 

Georgie: No, 

Melissa: I don’t 

Georgie: think that we need to be creeping around after our kids or, or waiting for these opportunities to [00:38:00] sort of jump out and sort of be like, I know what to do.

I’ve got a bucket and I’ve got, you know, I’ve got sand and you know, we can turn this into a whole life lesson kind of thing. There’s actually research by a professor called Peter Gie from the UK where he says, our children aren’t meant to be attuned to 100% of the time. They need time to be children and to sometimes have us not be connected to them and to give them an opportunity to make their own observations, to solve problems for themselves, to see what they get up to when they get bored.

So Tina and I both agree that free play. An independent play is really important for kids that they need opportunities to, you know, discover their own strengths and to not always have adults kind of, you know, intervening or being like the, the next participant in their play. They also need time to play with other kids, and so being able to offer [00:39:00] kids time to connect with their siblings, to connect with their schoolmates.

To play with other kids in the neighborhood and to even be able to explore their neighborhoods a little bit more and to get to know, you know, safe adults who could also be supportive from the sidelines, but not always have to be directly involved is really important too. And then of course, schools making enough time for kids to play before and after and and during school, during recess or free play times are also really important.

And we offer some. Of thinking about that. Some guidelines in the appendix of the way of play too. If parents are wondering how much play should my child be getting and how involved do I need to be in all of their play? 

Melissa: Yeah, so interesting. My daughter, she is approaching for, and she has over the last maybe like two months, just started asking for.

Play dates. So up until now she has very [00:40:00] much just been happy playing with me, playing with our nanny, doing that side by side, play with other children. But now it’s so beautiful. She’s like, can Charlotte come over for a play date? Like, and it just is so sweet, like she’s now just wanting people to play with her her own age, which is so sweet.

And I’m sure that’s that transition like from three to four that happens. Where that happens and yeah, so it’s a matter of like play with friends, their age, bit of play with me, a bit of play with other adults and then independent play. It’s like, you know, how can you get all of those in to really support them to thrive?

Georgie: Yes, and I think what you say is so important, Melissa, that our kids need play dates or they need opportunities to play with maybe with kids that aren’t so easy to just, you know, command and and direct and tell them what to do. You know, we’re very [00:41:00] malleable as players. I think when you play with your parent or you play with an adult, you know, we’re grownups who have very well developed prefrontal cortex, cortices.

And so that means that we’re very coachable in our play. But when you’re a 4-year-old and you’re playing with another 4-year-old, you could say like, I wanna be the mommy. And you be the baby and your friend can turn around and say, no, I’m gonna be the mommy every time. And so you’re now confronted with this person has another agenda than me.

This is my good friend that I love and I wanna be with, and I wanna play this game with you, but you don’t wanna play in the same way that I do and I can’t boss you around like I do with my. Mom or my dad. So what do I do now? And I think that social play, being able to play in collaboration and learn how to cooperate, to share take turns, that definitely, but even more so when somebody doesn’t wanna play the same way as [00:42:00] you, is a really great developmental opportunity for all of our kids.

And they’re gonna have to learn it, you know, the hard way sometimes, but. If they start out playing with parents who allow themselves to be directed and can follow your child’s lead, but then every once in a while might be a little playfully obstructive to their play, so you don’t always have to go along with exactly what your child wants to play.

It actually helps prepare them for other kids with different agendas if you sometimes go. You know, I, I thought I wanted to be the race car, but I think I wanna be the big monster truck instead. Yeah. I’d like to drive over the other cars and see how that goes, you know, to give them a little bit of an opportunity to deal with, you know, just, I’m, I’m not necessarily going with the flow every time, and I wanna see what you do with that.

I don’t wanna overly upset kids, [00:43:00] but I also want them to get a little bit of a taste of. Preparation for what it’s gonna be like when they do go off to school, or when they do start going on those play dates that they, what am I gonna do when a friend doesn’t necessarily wanna play the same way as me?

It’s really important as a life lesson too. 

Melissa: Now, for parents who feel disconnected from their child or overwhelmed by behavior, how can entering a child’s play world be healing and transformative for them and for a step forward for them? 

Georgie: Ooh, I like this question. You know, a lot of us in my generation and folks that are a little bit younger or older than me, we didn’t have adults playing with us.

You know, in my generation, my parents said, you know, go out. If it was a summertime day and there was no school, go out and play and then come back when the streetlights come on, and then we’ll know you’re okay. 

Melissa: They were so trusting, weren’t they? Yes, exactly. Yeah. I played with the kids in the street [00:44:00] and my dad did a little bit of play, but it was mainly like me in the street with the kids.

Georgie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think some kids still have that experience, but for a lot of our kids, they’re now, you know, we wanna make sure that they’re safe and that we’re watching them, or some adult is supervising them at all times. We could get into all of the effects of that on children, but I think the main point here is that we’re dealing with a new generation that’s used to adults being closer by.

And so the, the parents that I speak to about play and adopting some of the strategies in the way of play, they don’t really have a template or a rubric for what it’s meant to look like to play with your kids more. Not that you have to play with them again every second of the day, but they don’t have the experience of adults playing with them so much.

So they wanna make sure that it’s beneficial to their child. And they [00:45:00] also wanna know, you know, that when my kids are. Playing with me. What if it sort of gets out of hand? What if there are times where my kid’s doing something that I don’t like and I don’t necessarily wanna foster in them? So what if my kid is coming up and saying, Hey, I’m gonna pretend to be the bully and I’m gonna pull your hair, or something like that, because they may have encountered a bully at school and they’re trying to figure out what that was all about.

Let’s say. So what if your child is reenacting something that might touch on. You know, a difficulty maybe that you even had when you were a child and it’s bringing up feelings and emotions in you, or it’s just not the kind of behavior that you wanna see inspired in your child. Like, what should we do as parents?

I get this question all the time. What if my child is playing aggressively? What if they’re playing, like, shoot ’em up and they put up a, a finger in the air like this and they’re pretending to shoot with a gun and I don’t know how I feel about violence in play and things like that. So I think it’s when kids [00:46:00] stretch the limits of play that we have an important job to do.

And we also have a strategy for managing that in the book as well called Setting Playtime Parameters, where parents can notice when their kids are approaching a boundary in their play and in order to prepare their kids for real world situations where they’re gonna have to act within a boundary, then we can provide a limit.

So we can say. I’m not for shooting, but you can pretend to do X, Y, or Z. This is a different way of doing it that may satisfy the same intention or the same need. That helps kids learn how to manage and negotiate boundaries within what feels acceptable for that parent or that family, so you don’t have to let your kids get away with anything because it’s play.

There can be boundaries as well, and giving our kids. A set of expectations or a structure that they stay within is actually promoting a lot of security at the end of the day. 

Melissa: [00:47:00] Yep. I love that. Now, I’d love to hear, if you could put one book in the school curriculum of every high school around the world, what book would you choose?

So for both boys and girls, that 16, 17-year-old, what would you choose? 

Georgie: Would it be for the the kid to read or would it be for teachers to learn from and then be able to utilize tho that approach with the teenagers they work with? 

Melissa: No, for the kid to read. And it could be on any topic, any topic. 

Georgie: Okay, so there is a book that is quite, you know, you’d have to dig it up at the library or you could, you know, you could find it online.

It’s still readily available, but it’s, it’s a book that I read when I was becoming a play therapist and it’s still actually assigned in some high school classes. I know I had a, a play therapy client who was a teenager. ’cause we could still play with our. Teenagers, we can still [00:48:00] instill sort of a, a sense of play as, as caring for oneself, finding activities, hobbies, interests, you know, deepening our love for the things that we do, just for ourselves that we just enjoy.

And there’s not necessarily a goal behind it other than to just, you know, get into the flow and be our most creative and our highest self while we’re doing it. So there’s this book called Dibs in Search of Self, and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, Melissa. No. But it was written by Virginia Axle who was one of the original play therapists, and she talks about a boy that was sort of inside his own shell, so to speak.

He was hard to. To tease out, to draw out, almost like, you know, with my own son sometimes, you know when our kids kind of shut down and it’s like, I’m mad, I don’t wanna talk to you for, you know, three days. But they end up just kind of going away for five minutes and they just need a little bit of touch and space and they come back out and they’re like, okay, I’m ready to talk to you again.[00:49:00] 

This little boy was actually kind of lost inside himself and Virginia Axle used play. To reach him and it’s a, a beautiful, beautiful story. They ended up having this relationship that was completely built on trust and, and the safety that they shared within this pretty magical relationship where he started playing pretend with her.

And so high schoolers occasionally will read it, and it’s an amazing account of overcoming obstacles and barriers between. Two people, two very different people, a child and an adult. And I can’t think of a better time for an an adolescent to read a book like this than when you’re feeling maybe a little bit alienated because you’re growing up.

Whether we’re talking about teenagers and their peers, or maybe from the adults that they used to think we’re so cool and they’re not thinking are so cool anymore. So that would be it. Dibs in Search of Self by Virginia Ax Line. 

Melissa: [00:50:00] Oh, I love that. I’ll link to it in the show notes as well as your amazing book.

Oh, great. Yeah. Now I’ve got three rapid fire questions for you. Are you ready? Yes, go ahead. Yeah. Let’s see how I do. These are more personal, not so much play-based, but what is one thing that we can do today for our health? Oh my 

Georgie: goodness. 

Melissa: Be out 

Georgie: in nature. I, I never feel so at peace with myself.

Rejuvenated, even calmed and, um, grounded when I’m out listening to Birdsong or walking near running water, if you have access to a green space or a little patch of some form of nature, I would go out and spend, you know, half an hour or more if you can do it. Just be in in a natural realm and take it in in any way, shape or form.

You can just be in that natural landscape. 

Melissa: Absolutely. It’s been raining nonstop here the last couple of days, so I [00:51:00] have not been outside as much and I feel it. I really feel it. It just, yeah, it affects me. You do 

Georgie: notice a difference. Yeah, absolutely. That’s true of our kids too, by the way. Like I think there’s kind of no better therapy.

I wouldn’t have so much of a job if. Kids had more access to nature on a daily basis. I would love that for all of our kids. Just be able to go out and be in nature more of the time. 

Melissa: A hundred percent. Alright, next one. What is one thing we can do for more wealth in our life? 

Georgie: More wealth. Well, I think of relational wealth.

How can I have as Benny, you know, high quality. Enriching relationships with people that, you know, I can form secure attachments with. So I would say learn more about the the art of attachment and how we bond with each other. And, and you know, bring some of those insights into your life [00:52:00] if you can. ’cause I’m never happier than when I’m studying attachment theory and what it looks like for adult to child attachment and adult.

Adult attachment. 

Melissa: Yes. Beautiful. And what is one thing we can do for more love in our life? You kind of answered that one before, but is there anything else? 

Georgie: Yeah, love and attachment. I would say, you know, find five minutes to do something that you like to play on a daily basis. I think play is low. I think that finding a thing that you just wanna do for the hell of it, and you know it’s not part of your work.

Although if your work feels like play, then do more of that. But, you know, whether that’s, you know, knitting part of a sweater, whether that’s painting a. A five minute picture, whether that’s just being with your kid for five minutes and giving them some of the, some of the quality, the quality strategies that we’ve been talking about today from the way of play, whatever that looks like for you, [00:53:00] just play for five minutes.

It’s low. Mm-hmm. 

Melissa: Absolutely. And it’s easy to forget. And it’s easy to push it to the bottom of our to-do list, but it is so important for the happiness of the home. So you’ve inspired me so much with this conversation. Is there anything else that you wanna share? Any last parting words of wisdom or any other key points that you wanna drive home?

Georgie: I think that I would just say that the, the, the stories that our kids share with us and the, the play that we do with them. Even if we only have a few minutes a day to give them for this high quality play that we’re talking about are really memories that last a lifetime. When I’m with kids, when I’m with my own child, the things that they’ll remember most are the memories that we share.

The things that, that kids will go away and tell stories about are not, you know, the times [00:54:00] that we made sure that they had, you know, all their clothes were on straight and their. Pants were, you know, buckled just right and things like that. It’s really the, the times that we share where we’re, we’re just really tuning into them and making them feel like they’re truly seen.

So yeah, just play and make some memories with your kids. It’s one of the most powerful things we can do, and it’s really gonna stick with them for a very, very long time. 

Melissa: Yes. And if you reflect back on your own childhood, like think about all the things that you remember with your parents and what are those?

Georgie: Yes. What are your happiest memories? Those are the things that stick with you. The longest is times where you just were being silly together. You cooked something together, or maybe even shared like a picture that you made for them and they loved it. It’s just stuff that that you’ll hang on to for a really long time, and so will your kids.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. You are helping so many people and so many families with your work. Thank you so much. I wanna know how I and the listeners can give [00:55:00] back to you. Oh, well, if you 

Georgie: could come to our, our website, give us a visit and check out what we’re doing at the Play Strong Institute. That’s play strong institute.com.

You can also learn more about the book. I’m sure you’ll have it in the show notes, but if you wanted to learn more about our incredible work at the Play Strong Institute and with Tina Payne, Bryson, and the Center for Connection, where we all work together, please do and let us know what you think. 

Melissa: Yes, we will link to your incredible.

Book, your website, your Instagram, everything. I’ll link to it all in the show notes. Definitely check it out. If you wanna be a better parent, I highly recommend reading it and starting to incorporate more play into your every day. This has been so powerful, such a beautiful reminder for myself. I’m definitely gonna be telling Nick we need to play more.

As soon as I get off this every interview I do, I’m like, we’re doing this, we’re implementing this. And he’s like, okay, babe. [00:56:00] So we’re definitely gonna be playing more. I was just thinking, I’m like, how can I, like when I transition from work back to mom, I’m like, what can I do to make her laugh? Like, what can I do that’s playful and funny?

Maybe I can crawl out of my office like a cat. Who knows? But I’ll think of something and I just love this. It’s, it just brings so much more lightness and joy. To our every day. So thank you for this inspiration, and I definitely recommend grabbing your book. So thank you. 

Georgie: Thank you, Melissa. You’re such a warm, joyful presence.

I can only imagine your kids having tons of fun with you as the years go on. And I wish you all the, the happiness and all these playful moments together. I know that, that it’s just gonna be so special for them. Thank you for all these messages that you bring to the world as well. 

Melissa: Mm. Thank you so much.

I hope you got a lot out of this episode. I [00:57:00] did. I’m going to be implementing everything that we spoke about. I’m really excited about it, so I hope you are too. And if you loved this conversation, please subscribe to the show and leave me a review on Apple Podcasts. If you haven’t already, then send me a screenshot of your review to hello@melissaambrosini.com and I will send you my wildly wealthy guided meditation as a thank you for taking the time to leave me a review.

Now come and tell me on Instagram at Melissa m Rossini, what you got from this episode. I wanna hear your biggest key takeaway, and I love connecting with you. So jump on over there. And before I go, I just wanted to say thank you so much for being here, for wanting to be the best, the healthiest, and the happiest version of yourself, and for showing up today for you and your children.

You are amazing. You rock. Never forget that. Now, if there is someone in your life that you can think of that would really benefit from this episode, a mama friend, even your partner, anyone would benefit from this. Even if they’re not [00:58:00] thinking of having children right now, they will benefit from it because most of us have small children in our life.

So send this to them right now. You can send a screenshot, share it on your social media, email it to them, text it to them, do whatever you’ve got to do to get this in their ears. Until next time, don’t forget that love is sexy. Healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word.

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