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What if the key to healing your deepest wounds lies within you, in the parts of yourself you perceive as “bad”?

And what if understanding these parts could help you unlock unprecedented levels of inner peace?

To explore these transformative ideas, I’m joined by Dr. Richard Schwartz, the brilliant mind behind Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy. Dr. Schwartz’s groundbreaking approach to psychotherapy is revolutionizing how we understand and heal from deep-seated trauma — and I’ve personally experienced how life-changing and healing it can be.

In this must-listen episode, you’ll learn: how the groundbreaking IFS model works, how to consciously manage your “parts” when they’re triggered, simple techniques to induce deep healing, how to guide yourself through IFS without needing a therapist, the groundbreaking concept of ‘legacy burdens’, and how to embrace every part of ourselves — even the parts we perceive as “bad”.

This conversation has the power to literally change your life, and I’m so excited for you to listen.

So if you’re on a journey of self-discovery, you’re healing from past wounds, or you’re just curious about how to better understand yourself, then press play now… this episode is for you.

About Dr Richard Schwartz

Richard C. Schwartz, PhD, is the creator of Internal Family Systems, a highly effective, evidence-based therapeutic model that de-pathologizes the multi-part personality. His IFS Institute offers training for professionals and the general public. He is currently on the faculty of Harvard Medical School, and has published five books, including No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model.

In this episode we chat about:

• The origins of IFS Therapy and how it’s changing lives (02:30)
• Practical steps to manage and soothe your triggered “parts” (06:23)
• How to work through deep trauma by embracing all aspects of yourself (13:33)
• Simple but powerful techniques for practicing IFS solo (21:31)
• The hidden impact of legacy burdens on your life (28:27)
• Surprising strategies to tame your inner critic (34:43)
• The must-read books that can drive meaningful cultural change (41:43)

Episode resources:

• SheLaunch (join here)
• Mastering Your Mean Girl by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Open Wide by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Comparisonitis by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Time Magic by Melissa Ambrosini and Nick Broadhurst (book)
• No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz (book)
• You Are the One You’ve Been Waiting For: Applying Internal Family Systems to Intimate Relationships by Richard C. Schwartz (book)
• Introduction to Internal Family Systems by Richard C. Schwartz (book)
• Internal Family Systems (website)
• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk M.D. (book)

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The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy.

Melissa: [00:00:00] In episode 605 with Dr. Richard Schwartz, we are talking all about internal family systems, also known as IFS. If you have never heard of internal family systems, it is a frequently used evidence based psychotherapy which helps people heal by accessing and healing their protective and wounded inner parts.

This episode is gold. Welcome to the Melissa Ambrosini show. I’m your host, Melissa, best selling author of Mastering Your Mean Girl, Open Wide, Comparisonitis, and Time Magic. And I’m here to remind you that love is sexy, healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word. Each week I’ll be getting up close and personal with thought leaders from around the globe, as well as your weekly dose of motivation, so that you.

You can create epic change in your own life and become the best version of yourself possible. [00:01:00] Are you ready, beautiful? Hey beautiful. Welcome back to the show. I’m so excited about this episode because I absolutely love internal family systems. I have personally done it for many years and absolutely love it.

And Dr. Richard Schwartz, he is the creator of IFS and it is a highly effective, evidence based therapeutic model that depathologizes the multi part personality. His IFS Institute offers training for professionals and the general public. He is currently on the faculty of Harvard Medical School. And he has published five books, including No Bad Parts, Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family System Model.

He lives with his wife Jenna near Chicago, close to his three daughters and his growing number of grandchildren. And for everything that we mentioned in today’s episode, you can check out in the show notes, and that’s Over at melissarambrosini. [00:02:00] com forward slash six Oh five. Now, without further ado, let’s bring on the incredible Dr.

Richard Schwartz.

Richard, welcome to the show. I am so excited to have you here, but before we dive in, can you tell us what you had for breakfast this morning? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I had a couple of pieces of English muffin toast. 

Melissa: Well, I am just so glad you are fueled and you are ready to go. I discovered IFS years ago when I actually booked into a therapy session that I was recommended from somebody else.

And when I got to the session, this gentleman that was doing it over zoom, he started talking about these different parts and IFS. And I was not aware, I’d never heard of this, but I was fascinated and something so deep within me resonated so profoundly. And it was a session that I [00:03:00] was having with my husband and it was so amazing.

I loved it. I kept on working with this gentleman for a really long time. yeah, yeah. And it’s changed my life. Truly, it has changed my life. This awareness around the different parts and how we all have different parts and there’s no bad parts. This has really changed my life. And internal family systems has been incorporated into my life, my business, and it’s now something that I even teach inside my programs.

So thank you for creating it. I want to know, how did this all start for you? Like, how did this come to you? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Didn’t exactly come to me, but first let me tell you how honored I am to hear this. So we go back, it’s 41 years this year. I’m gotten old now and I started out, I think I was about 32 and I was working in a department of psychiatry.

In Illinois, and I’ve trained as a family therapist, so I was one of these obnoxious family therapists that thought we’d found the holy grail and that people were who were mucking around in the inner world were wasting their [00:04:00] time because we could change all that by just reorganizing these families.

And I set out to prove it and wound up doing an outcome study with bulimia, a bunch of bulimic kids and their families, and found that that wasn’t true. We could reorganize the family just right. And a bunch of our clients just kept going. And so out of frustration, I began asking why, and they started talking this to me at the time, strange language of parts.

They would say, when something bad happens, it triggers this critic who’s calling me all kinds of names. And then that triggers a part of me that makes me feel totally worthless and empty and alone. That feeling is so dreadful that this binge comes in to get me away from that. But the binge brings back the critic and that makes this one feel terrible again.

And so the binge has to come back. And they were caught in that vicious cycle for days. And so at first it sounded bizarre. And then I noticed. I’ve got them too. And some of mine were similar to [00:05:00] theirs. So then I just got really curious and I think I had a big advantage that I had really stayed away from any intra psychic theorizing, particularly psychoanalysis, because family therapy was a kind of pendulum swing away from that.

So I was forced to really listen to what my clients were saying about these parts. And long story short, you know, at first I thought they were what they seemed and I would have my client fight with the critic and. Try to control the badge and that was making them worse, but. Ultimately, I learned that approach, which is still used by most therapies, backfires.

And the reason for that is because these parts aren’t what they seem. They actually are valuable inner personalities that are forced out of their naturally valuable states into a Sometimes destructive roles by traumas that you experienced or by bad parenting. You’re locked for blades and arrows. You suffer.

Like I said, force them out of their naturally valuable states into [00:06:00] these extreme roles and burdened with extreme beliefs and emotions that came into you during those traumas. And so just again, by sort of naively asking questions, This is what my client started to teach me. So it isn’t that I developed this model.

I’m just a good listener and I just learned it from my clients. 

Melissa: Beautiful. So for anyone listening, who’s never heard of internal family systems, what is it? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: It started out as an approach to psychotherapy and it’s expanded now beyond that to become a kind of life practice. It’s a different paradigm for understanding the mind.

It’s actually depathologizing and empowering for people. 

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. So you say that we all have these different parts and they’re all good. So when we are in a moment where we realize a part of us is being triggered, maybe [00:07:00] by what something someone has said to us, and we realize that part is being triggered, maybe it’s triggering anger, maybe it’s triggering sadness, resentment, whatever it is.

What do we then do? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Can you think of a recent event where somebody triggered a part of it? 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Can you describe something about it? It triggered frustration. Alright, so let’s see, we can go to that frustrated part. So, focus on it and find it in your body or around your body. Where do you find it? 

Melissa: It’s kind of in two parts.

It’s like in my chest and then also in my solar plexus. It’s like a ball there and a ball in my solar plexus. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. Those might be two different parts. We’ll find out. Which of those two would you want to start with? Let’s start with the ball in the solar plexus. So as you focus on it, tell me how you feel toward it.

Okay. Empathy. Good. So let it know that. Just extend that [00:08:00] empathy down to that place. See how it reacts to your empathy. 

Melissa: It softens. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Ask if there’s something it wants you to know. Don’t think of the answer, just wait and see what comes back from that place in your body. 

Melissa: It says to me, relax, just soften. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And ask if it is the one that got so frustrated with this person, or if that’s the other one.

Melissa: It’s 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: this 

Melissa: one. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And ask it more about, what does it want you to know about its frustration? Don’t think, just wait and see what comes. Control, it says. So it felt controlled or it wanted to control 

Melissa: it, wanted to control, 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: wanted to control this other person. 

Melissa: Yeah. Just the situation. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Oh, so it felt frustrated that it couldn’t control the situation.

Does that make sense to you, Melissa? 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So let it know you get that. See how it reacts to being understood. 

Melissa: It feels good to be understood. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And [00:09:00] just see if there’s anything else it wants you to know about it. How it operates inside of you. 

Melissa: Just say it again, like relax and soften, it’s okay. You can let go.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Is it saying that or is somebody saying that to it? It’s saying that. So it really wanted to control the situation, but now it’s saying it wants you to relax about it? 

Melissa: Yeah. I don’t need to control the situation. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So it was initially frustrated, and now it somehow realizes that it doesn’t need to. It sounds good.

This is an odd question, but ask it anyway. Ask it how old it thinks you are. Six, let it know how old you really are and see how it reacts to that information. 

Melissa: It just took a step back, 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: like in shock or relief in relief. So it’s a relief to know that you’re older and you can handle more than you could when you were six.

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. So ask if it now can trust you more to handle [00:10:00] people like that. Yes, of course. Okay, good. If that’s all it wants you to know, we could go to the other one. Alright, so focus on the one that’s a little higher up. Do you feel open to getting to know it? 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So let it know you’re interested in it and see what it wants you to know.

Melissa: It’s hurt. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And how do you feel toward it as you hear that? 

Melissa: Compassion. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So let it know that. Do you have compassion for it? See how it reacts to your compassion. It softens. Ask it, there’s more it wants you to know about it’s hurt with this person. 

Melissa: Just says it’s okay to be hurt or to feel that hurt. It’s okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So are you okay with feeling it’s hurt? 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Well, let it know you’re ready to feel how painful that was and tell it to let you feel that. 

Melissa: More is coming, like disappointment and sadness. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: It’s still okay to feel it all? Well, let it know you’re ready. You can really handle feelings, pain and sadness and [00:11:00] disappointment.

It’s great you can do this. This is what these parts need. They need you to feel it. If you’re up for it, Melissa, you can ask this part. Do those feelings take it anywhere in the past? If it’s stuck anywhere in the past with these feelings, if it does show you something, you don’t necessarily have to disclose what it is.

It doesn’t. But ask it does feel like you get how hurtful all that was. Now. 

Melissa: It gets it. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And ask what it’s like for it to have you get it, to have you feel it. 

Melissa: It feels relief. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Now the trust that you understand how bad that was. See if it would like to unload any of these feelings. Yes, it does. And ask where it carries all that, in its body or on its body?

Not in your body, but in its body. Its chest as well. And ask what it would like to give it all up to? Light, water, fire, wind, earth, anything else. To air. [00:12:00] Tell it to just let that out of its chest, out of your chest, and let the air take it until it’s all gone. Whatever wants to happen with your body, just go with it.

No need to carry that anymore. Okay, good. You can tell if it wants to, it can invite qualities in now that there’s more space that it would like to have. And you can just see what comes in now. 

Melissa: Just love and white light. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So let that run all through your body, and then when that feels complete, then think about this person again, and see how it feels now.

Neutral. Before we stop, see if there’s anything these parts want you to do relative to that person or if they just want you to feel okay. 

Melissa: Just want me to feel okay. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. Does that feel complete for now? 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: All right, so thank your parts for letting us do this, particularly so publicly, [00:13:00] and come on back.

Well. How do you feel? 

Melissa: Good and grateful I didn’t wear mascara today. Okay. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. 

Melissa: Powerful. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your being a good sport. You asked how this model works, what people should do, and it was a great illustration of it. 

Melissa: Thank you for taking me through that. I feel very grateful. And I’d love to hear how you would take someone through something like that, who’s experienced a very big, deep trauma.

We just did an example of me, which is a little a trauma, but how does this work for someone who has experienced something so big? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And there are many therapists using this [00:14:00] for trauma to become a primary model for healing trauma. And so those people have had big, bad experiences and to illustrate that I need to describe a little more of this map that came to me as I was learning about these parts from my clients.

So when you get hurt. In your case, and not such a big way in other people’s in a big way. So we’ve learned to just move on from trauma and try to forget about it. In the process of doing that, we’re abandoning the parts of us that were hurt the most by the trauma, because now they carry the burdens of emotional pain or terror, or.

Worthlessness and shame. And these generally are the parts of us that are the most sensitive and the youngest. And before they were hurt, we loved them because they give us all this playfulness and liveliness, love for people and connectedness, [00:15:00] creativity. But because they’re the most sensitive parts, they take on those burdens the most.

So we think we’re just moving away from the memories of the trauma or the pain of it. And in fact, we’re disconnecting from our most precious qualities simply because they got hurt. So for them, it’s like insult to injury. The injury was the trauma and the insult is that you abandoned them. So most of us, again, because of the culture we live in, have a bunch of what I call exiles, which are what I just described.

When you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous because so many things could trigger it. And if an exile gets triggered, it’s like an explosion of fire and pain can take you out and make it so you can’t function and stay in bed for a week. So then we have a bunch of other parts that become protectors.

They leave their naturally valuable tickets. And take on [00:16:00] these protective roles, some of whom try to manage your life so that you guys don’t get triggered. They’ll try to, they’re big into control. They also want to please everybody a lot of the time, or they want to, you know, not let anybody get too close to you, or they want to make you look perfect, so you don’t get rejected, or they want to make you perform at a very high level, so that you get accolades to try to the worthlessness and so on, and some of them make you take care of everybody and not let you take care of yourself, so people depend on you.

So these we call manager protectors, and there’s a whole lot more common manager roles. I just named some of the most common. So that’s what most systems call the ego, those parts that are usually running your life. And they’re running in a way to try and contain these exiles and keep them from getting retriggered.

Doesn’t always work. The world has a way of breaking through those defenses. Then this flames of raw emotion threatened to overwhelm [00:17:00] me. So another set of pirates standing by for the submergence and will do whatever it takes to get you away from all, and they don’t care about the collateral damage to your body or your relationships.

They know they just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance. Or distract you until they burn themselves out. So these we call firefighter protectors, because they’re fighting these flames of emotion. They’re very impulsive and reactive. All they know is if they don’t get you away from those feelings, you’re going to die.

So most of us have a kind of a hierarchy of those. And the first one doesn’t work. We go to the next one and that doesn’t work. And so on. Those become vilified in our culture by and large. You know, cause they’re seen as addictions or lots of other things, but they’re just desperately trying to protect it.

And then they polarize with the managers who are trying to keep you in control. So there’s these big battles that happen all the time. Like I was saying with the [00:18:00] bulimic kids between this big critic. And this binging part, so that’s the map to the territory. What I learned the hard way was the importance of starting with protectors, which I think we did with you.

We started with the part that wanted to be in control, right? And work with schloos with it and, you know, kind of get it to trust us and then ask for permission to go to the part. Which we didn’t actually overtly do, but to go to the part that it protects, which would be the exile, which in your case was the sadness and all the pain and the disappointment that exile part of you carried.

And then we can unburden, which we did because your parts weren’t stuck in a particular scene, we could do it without a couple of the steps that we usually have to go through, which would be to learn where it was stuck in the past. And literally have you go into that scene and get it out of there. And then we could unload the staff, but.

You didn’t need that. So we just went ahead and unburdened. Then we would come [00:19:00] back to the protector and see how it reacted to not having to protect this card anymore. So that’s a long answer to your question of what do you do when somebody’s got bigger traumas and some clients it takes quite a while of getting to know and honoring these protectors.

Before they’ll give permission to go to these places that they’ve kept locked up sometimes for decades, that they’re really afraid of opening the door to. So I have to be a good, what I call home merchant. I have to sell them on the benefit of actually opening that door. Cause all they know is when they open that door, when a blast open, it’s a nightmare.

So it’s a tough sell. Sometimes it takes a while, but I’ve become a pretty good salesperson. So we get permission And I would have you focus on that exhale of pain, sadness, disappointment. And then you heard me ask over and over, How do you feel toward this part? How do you feel toward that part? In answering that, you’re telling me how much of what I call yourself is present, versus [00:20:00] other parts.

So the big deal in IFS, that in addition to these parts, I stumbled onto the discovery that there’s a person in there who can actually heal them, and knows how to do it, and has all these wonderful, what we call C word qualities. Yes. Calm, confidence, curiosity, compassion, clarity, creativity, courage, and connectedness.

Those are what we call the eight C’s of self leadership. So with the controlling part of the beginning, I had you ask how old it thinks you are. It said six, as I recall. Yeah, a lot of these parts don’t know you. They don’t know that there is this self in there who can actually run your life from a very different place.

It’s kind of a shock to them to realize you’re not still six and that you can handle things. And so helping these parts trust yourself to lead is a big part of the RFS model. So before I have anybody work with a part, I ask how they feel toward [00:21:00] it, if they feel anything besides calm or curious or open or wanting to help it, then that’s because they’re blended with some of these other parts.

And so I would have you ask those parts to open a little space so you can open your heart to the part, you can open your mind to it, and I wouldn’t have you relate to these parts until you could say, I just want to get to know it, or I feel like I want to help it. And then I know we have enough salve to start the process.

Melissa: Yeah, I love it. And I love those eight C’s, they’re so powerful. So how can we do this on our own, like without a therapist? How can we take ourselves through this on a daily basis? For me, what I do is even just closing my eyes and just having the awareness that there’s that part that’s triggered. What is that?

So I just have like a little conversation with myself and I just go within and I go to that part and I have a little chat with it and I just say like, what are [00:22:00] you feeling? And I can usually be transported back to when I first had that feeling. And I just love that part of me. Even just knowing that it’s just a part and it’s not the totality of who I am allows me to let it go.

You know what I mean? Because in the past, I’ve always been like, I’m sad or I’m angry. I’m frustrated. And that I is so encompassing and overwhelming, but when you say there’s a part of me that feels frustrated, or there’s a part of me that feels sad, or there’s a part of me that feels angry or resentment, completely disarms.

The enormity of that emotion for me, that’s kind of what I do. I just have a little conversation and I’m able to let it go. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: That’s what we encourage people to do. We’re actually trying to figure out how to build something that people can use, like with AI or something like that to do just what you’re talking about.

There’s [00:23:00] a bit more to it that you can do on your own, but. No, you figured it out on your own. Several things that you just said are by themselves very liberating. One is that you’re right, isn’t who you are. It’s just a part. That part isn’t who it seems either. It’s not a bundle of rage. It’s a part that’s burdened with those feelings.

Because it’s stuck in these scenes that it can show you. And then as you witness that, it’s a big relief to the part and it can transform simply by being witnessed. Sometimes the step of unburdening, which we did also is very helpful. And then the you who is separating from it and seeing it now can extending this compassion to it.

That’s who you really are. And just being aware of that gives you a totally different self concept. 

Melissa: Hmm. Beautiful. Hmm. Is there anything else we need to know? Cause like, ideally I want people to be able to do this whenever it comes up for themselves, that would be the goal that they have that [00:24:00] tool in their toolkit to be able to walk themselves through this whenever it comes up throughout their day.

Is there anything else we need to know to be able to practice this on a daily basis? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: You know, people differ in their ability to do it on their own. And like I was saying earlier, people with a lot of trauma have trouble trusting their self to do it. Are really afraid of these exiles coming out if you open the door, although there are some people who can do an amazing amount with a lot of trauma on their own, but many people have protectors who aren’t going to let them do it.

So rather than set them up for frustration, my recommendation is to have them find an IFS therapist and help them be guided through it. But for people without the same level of trauma, and you know, we’re now training coaches to bring this to executives and. You know, we’re doing a lot of things that aren’t necessarily therapy with people like you’re finding, find that just that sort of daily practice.[00:25:00] 

I don’t know how often you do it, but for a lot of people, it becomes a little meditation in the morning. Like when I wake up, I just say, okay, who has attention, I’ll think about what happened the day before. And, you know, the parts that got triggered by my wife, I was just, how are you guys doing? And a piece of work with them, like you just did.

And I’ll also ask, what do you want me to say to her now? And, you know, over time, having done this practice a lot. My parts now trust me to lead. And so before I got on the podcast, I went inside, I found any parts that were nervous. And I said, okay, I get it, but just let me handle this. You know, I could feel them separate and relax and I’ll say some version.

Remember, it always goes better if you let me lead. So I can feel my heart open and I’m not nervous anymore. And I’d feel this sort of vibrating energy that you had some of. Coming through my body and that’s what I call self energy and in that state, I don’t get tired. I enjoy connecting with people [00:26:00] and things go well.

If I work with someone like you, like we just did, we can go fast to very powerful places. So that’s what we’re trying to bring to the public. 

Melissa: Imagine if this was taught in schools. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And there are people doing that. There’s a woman named Joanna Curry Satori who has a program called P. A. W. S. And it’s pretty into a number of school systems.

You know, my guidance more recently has been to not focus so much on therapists and training them, but more on bringing this to larger systems. So schools is one, but we have plans to do a lot of other things. 

Melissa: Wonderful. The more tools that are in the schooling system to support children, teenagers with what is coming up for them, the better.

This is the stuff that we should be teaching them. And if it’s not in the school, like as parents, we can learn it and we can embody it and we can teach it in our homes. So don’t throw your the air and go, well, it’s not in the schooling system. [00:27:00] So it’s my responsibility to teach this to my children. And to embody it within my four walls, that is how we change the world.

That’s that ripple effect that will happen when we just focus on what is happening in our four walls. And that’s all we can really do. And I think now more than ever, like, you know, mental health, there’s more anxiety, there’s more depression, there’s more panic attacks. There’s more mental health issues than ever before.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. More suicide. 

Melissa: Yeah. More suicide. It’s so full on. And these sorts of tools can really support us. This is just one of the reasons why I love your work and why I wanted to have you on because I want everybody to know about internal family systems. I want everybody to at least explore it and feel what it feels like for you.

And if it resonates, great. And if not, great, you [00:28:00] know, but. At least be open to hearing about it. I love it. And it’s just, like I said before, it’s truly impacted my life. It’s changed my life. It’s something that I carry with me every day. And I even now talk about in my program, SheLaunch, I talk about the different parts and I’m trying to do my part on educating and mainly because it’s just impacted me so much.

And 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I know you have a big reach and a lot of respect. You said, I’m really grateful. The other big focus for me these days are what I call legacy burdens, which are these extreme beliefs and emotions that didn’t come from your direct experience in your life, but maybe came from your ancestors, and maybe are trauma that happened centuries ago.

But kind of trickled down through the generations or it came from your ethnic group. Now there’s a bunch of legacy burdens just floating around the American culture. I’m sure it’s true in your cultures as well, that just, we can’t help but absorb. [00:29:00] They attach to our parts, just like the other burdens, you know, for me, many of the, if not all the conflicts in the world are related to these legacy burdens.

So I’m very much into, is there a way to collectively unload a lot of stuff along the lines of what you’re talking about, everybody knew about, could we all get together and somehow just let it go? And so I’ve been experiment with doing it with large groups. So far, it’s been really fruitful. 

Melissa: Awesome. How do we know if it’s a legacy burden?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So do you want to try something with that? 

Melissa: Yeah, sure. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: All right, so think about belief or an emotion that might not be related to your life, might be somebody else’s energy that you’re carrying. 

Melissa: The first thing that came to me was beliefs around money. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And what are the beliefs around money? 

Melissa: That it’s hard to come by.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay, so focus on the part that believes that. Find it in your body, around your body. 

Melissa: Chest. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And as you notice it [00:30:00] there, how do you feel toward that party? 

Melissa: I feel compassion and empathy. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So let it know, see how it reacts to your compassion. 

Melissa: It’s got its defense up a little bit. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: What’s it saying? 

Melissa: It crossed its arms.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So it doesn’t trust you or it thinks you want to change it? 

Melissa: Yeah, I think so. I want to change it. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So if it’s true, let it know that we’re not here to change it. We just want to show a lot of compassion and care. It might want to change at some point, but it’s, we’re not doing anything to it. See how it reacts.

Melissa: Yeah. It dropped its arms and it’s like, okay. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: See what it wants you to know about that belief or about itself in general. Be open to it. 

Melissa: It’s not mine. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Ask who’s it is. If it has a sense of that. 

Melissa: It said it came from my dad, but it’s actually my dad’s dad’s. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And ask if it likes having to carry this belief.

Melissa: No, it said straight away, no. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So would it like to give it up? Is it ready to? [00:31:00] 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So ask it where it carries that in its body or on its body. 

Melissa: Oh, it’s chest, but it’s saying like, they don’t almost believe that you can give it up. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. Most of the time they don’t believe that, but it’s just not true. You can’t.

All we need is the parts desire to give it up, but just reassure of that. Okay. So it carries it in its chest. It comes from the grandfather. Is that right? 

Melissa: Yes. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And you can ask if it would like to invite the grandfather or the father to come in and unburden with. 

Melissa: Yes. It wants both. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: All right. So go ahead and invite them to come and tell me if they show up.

Melissa: Yeah, they’re there. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: All right. And ask it and them what they’d like to give it up to. Light, water, fire, wind, or authority to pass. Thank God. Invite God to come, tell me when God’s there and tell them all to just give that up to God, let God take it until it’s all gone, [00:32:00] just see if they can move your body in the way it wants to move.

Melissa: They can, they’re doing it. It’s been heavy for them. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Absolutely. If you’re curious, you can ask the grandfather what happened when he got it. What was, what brought it into his system? 

Melissa: His father. And maybe his sister’s circumstances. Yeah. In Italy, very poor, working hard, had to migrate to Australia and was away from his family for months.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay, so let him know that that all makes sense. No need to carry any of the more, and how’s the part doing now without it? It’s light. Great. And it can invite qualities. And also if it would like to, just white light coming through. And now, as you think about money, what’s it feel like? 

Melissa: Light. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Good. Does this one feel complete too?

Yes. Good. Come on back. I have to say you’re really good at this. We can do [00:33:00] big pieces in a few minutes. You know, people watching this might be very skeptical about whether something like this could be unburdened that quickly, but it turns out it can. So the part’s ready and is willing, then we can do it.

Melissa: Absolutely. That feels good. Okay. I like that. So that’s how you do the legacy stuff. It feels nice. Like being able to do that for my dad and my grandfather. He’s passed. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: That’s right. The spirit. Yeah. And. The original question was, how do you know if it’s a legacy burden? And as we were getting to know the part, it said spontaneously, this didn’t belong to me.

So they’ll tell you if it’s somebody else’s energy, that’s how you know. 

Melissa: And I can see for even like my clients, how they carry money beliefs that are not theirs. Relationship beliefs that may not be theirs health beliefs that are not theirs. Like I can literally see how this could be so supportive for them.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. [00:34:00] My father was in world war two. It was a Jew and was captain of the medical unit that liberated Dachau, so I had carried a lot of legacy burdens for my father. It took a while, but it’s a huge relief to not carry any of that stuff anymore. None of the Holocaust, legacy burdens and fears. And I’m trying to bring that more and more, you know, it’s the Middle East, the way that’s happening now.

So much legacy burdens involved on both sides. 

Melissa: Wow. That’s big. One of the reasons why I was able to do that with that belief very quickly was I have done a lot of work on that stuff for years, you know, So yeah, this is powerful work. This is so powerful. I absolutely love it. I’d love to know if there’s anything else that you feel would be really supportive for us to know to either explore this on our own at home or with a practitioner.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I could lead an exercise that you could do, but it could be for everybody if [00:35:00] you want. Absolutely. Let’s do it. So everybody’s got our critic. 

Melissa: I call that inner critic, the inner mean girl. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: West. Okay. So I’ll march you through the steps, but I’m going to encourage everybody to do a similar thing while they’re watching you.

So the first step is to notice where it broadcasts from in your body or around your body. 

Melissa: For me, it’s on my shoulder. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So the first step in getting to know any part is just to notice where it is, and that becomes a place you direct your questions and get the answers from. Then the second question, once you notice it, is how do you, Melissa, feel toward this critic?

Melissa: Right now, I feel almost a little bit playful toward her, but definitely that hasn’t always been the case. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And what has been in the past? 

Melissa: Anger, frustration. Yeah. And this moment I feel like she’s like cheeky and I can [00:36:00] smile at her cheekiness. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Oh, great. But thank the parts of you that have been so angry at her and frustrated with her for giving you the space to be cheeky and playful with her.

And for those of you watching, you may just feel anger toward the critical, it makes sense. So we’re just going to ask those parts to give you a little space to get to know it rather than. Be angry at that just for a little while. And in doing that, you’re not going to give it more power to take over.

You’re just going to maybe even help it change some. So people at home don’t want to interact with the critic until they’re open to it in the way you are now. And if these other parts won’t step back, then you can spend the time getting to know them and why, but they’re afraid what happens if they did.

But Melissa, since you, you are pretty open to the critic, to Mean Girl now, let it know that, and just ask what it wants you to know about itself, and why it does this to you. It says it’s its role. Okay. Ask if it likes this role. It [00:37:00] just feels like it has to do it. It’s what it knows. Okay. Ask it where it got the role and how it came to know this role.

Conditioning. From family or society, all of it. Society. You know, it might’ve just got stuck with the role, but ask if it’s afraid of anything happening, if it didn’t do this job, what would it do? Right. That’s a good question. So ask it if it was totally liberated from this role and it trusted that. Okay.

What might it like to do instead inside of you? 

Melissa: It’s sunbaking on the beach with like a coconut and 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: tell it that’s where you’re headed. You want to free it up to be able to be a beach bomb. How’s that sound too? 

Melissa: It’s okay with that. It’s like, okay, I can lay there and tan and drink coconuts with little umbrellas in them.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Perfect. Do you have it at the beach or where is it? 

Melissa: It’s at the [00:38:00] beach. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. It needs a rest, right? It’s been working hard. 

Melissa: It has. It’s worked really hard over the years. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. And what was his intention with all that work? What was it trying to do inside of you? 

Melissa: It thinks it was trying to keep me safe. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And what kind of safe, what’s it afraid would happen if it wasn’t calling you names all the time?

Melissa: It wouldn’t be in control. It 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: wouldn’t be in control of you? 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And why did it need to control you? What was it trying to control in you? 

Melissa: It just says it wanted to lead. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: But it did say it was trying to protect you. So what’s it afraid would happen if it wasn’t in the lead? 

Melissa: Love would be. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: And what would be bad about love being in the lake?

Melissa: Competition. It wants to be. That’s what it says. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. So it was in competition with love. Well, that’s interesting. So it wasn’t afraid for you to lead with love. It was just, didn’t want to be displaced or dethroned. Okay. But now that it’s on the beach, does it still feel that way? Or how’s it feel? 

Melissa: [00:39:00] It’s happy.

It’s like, finally. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Ask if it carries any burdens, any extreme beliefs or emotions. 

Melissa: It kind of just like flicks its hand and it’s like, yeah, but I’m done with it. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. So it’s good to just drink its drink there on the beach. 

Melissa: Yup. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: All right. Does that feel complete? 

Melissa: Yup. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. So come on back. So for those watching at home, it won’t go that quickly or that easily.

You’ve done a clearly done a lot of work on yourself and this part was really ready, but the basic steps are the same. Just to review, find it your body, how do you feel toward it? You do that until you feel at least curious about, and then ask it what it wants you to know about it. So, and why does this critic.

If you don’t think of the answers, just wait and see what comes from that place in your body. And then this is a very useful question. What’s it afraid would happen if it didn’t do this job? And yours was just programmed. It just thought it was what it’s supposed to do. But a [00:40:00] lot of times exiles, they’re protecting vulnerable parts in different ways.

And so we want to honor them for their service, like you might the military. So then you do that. Appreciating it for trying to protect you. And then similar to what you did, if it was liberated from this role, what might it like to do instead? A lot of times I’d never even thought of it, but there was an alternative.

Melissa: What do most people say? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I tell you, the beach is very popular. 

Melissa: The beach. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Beach is very popular with these critics because they work so hard and they just want to relax. Some of them want to become your cheerleaders. It’s like they want to do the opposite of what they’ve been doing. You know, you just help it into that new role.

And a lot of these protectors won’t stay relentless or stay in their new role until you heal, protect the exiles they were protecting. I don’t think that’s true in your case, cause you’ve done so much work, but if it doesn’t stick, [00:41:00] it’s good to just explore if there’s some pain in there still that needs attention.

But really that much of. Getting to know critic and change, starting to change your relationship with it. So, you know, I ate it instead, you kind of honor it. That’s a big change by itself. And then we didn’t do it with this part, but if people at home can ask that question, I asked your other part, which is.

How old does it think you are? And most people get a single digit, just like you did. And then that update of no, I’m not a little kid. I don’t need your services the way I did. It’s a big relief to these parts. 

Melissa: So powerful. I love it. I would love now to get your thoughts on this. I want you to pretend that you have a magic wand and you could put one book in the school curriculum of every high school around the world.

Actually, I’ll give you two books. [00:42:00] One of your books and one of someone else’s. I would love to know. And I know that you have re released internal family systems and you are the one you’ve been waiting for. And I’ll link to all of your amazing books in the show notes as well. But if you could have two books, one of yours and one of someone else’s in the school curriculum, what would you choose?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Last book I wrote, No Bad Parts, it’s called. People love it, just love it. You know, it’s written for the public by and large and people can get it. The other book. I would recommend his Bessel van der Kolk’s, The Body Keeps the Score. 

Melissa: Mm, brilliant. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. Talk about changing a culture. He’s really helped people see the trauma is beneath all these extremes and that we’re punishing people and throwing them in jail and focusing on their extreme behavior.

Rather than on the cause of the behavior, which is the trauma, that’s really powerful book for that cultural change. 

Melissa: [00:43:00] Absolutely. And I’ll link to that as well as your books in the show notes. Yeah, we’re focusing on the behavior and not helping someone move through it. We’re just throwing them in jail. Why are we not helping them with their mental health?

And ideally they wouldn’t get to that place. Because we have these tools that are taught in schools. That’s the ideal, right? I love that book as well. It’s really powerful. I would love to know how your day looks. Can you talk us through a quote unquote, typical day in your life? I love hearing about people’s morning routines and their little rituals and things that you do that really help you thrive.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. So as I said, when I wake up in the morning, I’ll do a little check in with my parts and I’ll. Go over what happened the day before and there’s anything they want me to do with my wife or whoever trainer me that I’ll review what’s coming up, how they’re feeling about each of these things, like, well, we’re doing, and do they need anything from me around that and in the process of doing that, and, you know, sometimes [00:44:00] it takes five minutes and sometimes it takes half an hour to an hour.

And the process of doing, I might wind up doing a big piece of work on my own with the part that has some kind of a fear of doing the dead. So as you look at life that way, everything becomes what I call a trailhead. You know, if you’re out hiking, there’s a trailhead. And if you follow the trail, it’ll take you to something beautiful.

Maybe each of these. Emotions that we feel or stream thoughts, they’re trailers that if you follow, we’ll take you to the part from which they’re eminent, and then you can begin to work with it. I’m just assessing those trailers. And then people like, in my case, my wife become great. What we call tormentors with a hyphen between the tour and the mentor.

So by tormenting me, she’s mentoring me about what I need to heal. 

Melissa: Oh, that’s good. That’s really good. I love that so much. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: If I use her that way, if I focus inside myself and find the part, but you [00:45:00] didn’t with the guy, I don’t know if it was a guy, the person that frustrated you, instead of trying to change that person, you went inside and you learned a lot about your parts and you actually helped them.

That person won’t have the same impact anymore. So that person was a tormentor for you. So that’s a very different way of seeing people that bother you. So that’s what I mean, that it becomes a kind of life practice. And so anyway, you’re asking about my day. So yeah, I’ll, I’ll meet with my parents. I’ll do whatever need and then have breakfast.

These days in particular, I have a part that’s compelled to watch the news, especially with Trump, you know, in our country and end up democracy is on the line. So. I’ll have records while I watch MSNBC and then I’ll, you know, start doing what’s lined up to happen in the day. These days, it’s very exciting because as I said earlier, the goal is to bring it to higher levels of systems.

So I’m collaborating with a lot of [00:46:00] people that can take it places that I can’t. For example, there’s a guy named Bill Isaacs, who’s a consultant and coach and he’s using it to depolarize things at the world bank and the IMF. So they make better decisions about between the staff and the board. There’s a lot of polarization.

So he’s helping them make better decisions, be more self led. Luckily, I’m connecting now with people that can take it to those levels. I don’t do a lot of ongoing psychotherapy anymore. So I don’t see a lot of clients. My wife and I’ll get together for dinner and try to relax and maybe do something social.

Not a thrilling day, but it keeps me like today, as soon as we stop, I’m going to go play tennis. So. In the summer like this, I can do that. 

Melissa: Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing. And I’m excited for this to be out in a bigger way. Now I have three rapid fire questions for you. Are you ready? What [00:47:00] is one thing that we can do today for our health?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. So this parts work is very related to health. So our big outcome study was with rheumatoid arthritis, for example. Power. And we found that by focusing on pain, symptom, physical pain, getting curious about it, you learn about the parts that are using that pain to get a message through to you that you’re not listening to.

In this case, it was mostly Irish Catholic mothers who had these massive caretaking parts that wouldn’t let them take care of themselves of the parts that hated the caretaking parts were doing what they could to not let them take care of everybody. Trying to get attention has worked out that polarization.

Their arthritis got a whole lot better. Some people went into complete remission. So that’s one thing you can do for your health. Is to actually see if there are parts trying to get a message [00:48:00] through to you, through your body. And also, you know, there are symptoms that are just the product of the stress you’re under.

And sometimes there are parts that are causing that stress, like those critics or caretaking parts or parts are driven to achieve a certain amount. Yeah, there’s a whole movement of bringing IFS to medicine. 

Melissa: Very powerful. I love it. Okay. What is one thing that we can do for more wealth in our life? So more abundance in all areas of our life?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Well, you did one thing, which was to unburden the parts that carry those beliefs. So I’ve had to do that too, kind of coming from a Jewish family and a lot of legacy burdens around money myself. And it wasn’t until I did a piece of unburdening that it all became much easier. Now I don’t worry about money whatsoever.

So a lot of it is working with the parts that need a lot, because I don’t need a lot now. I don’t, I’m pretty happy with what I am. I don’t [00:49:00] work hard to make a lot of money. I work hard to get this done. So it’s just a big relief to not worry about money and privileged to have enough money that I don’t have to sweat about survival or anything, you know, that’s a big topic.

Melissa: Yeah, it’s huge. IFS can help unburden those money wealth blocks, which is amazing. And last one, what can we do for more love in our life? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So a lot of it is working with the parts that are afraid to let it in. There’s another book I wrote called You’re the One You’ve Been Waiting For. Most of us are taught that the love we need is outside of us.

So we come out of our families with all these exiled parts that are desperate to have somebody take care of them. The way. You didn’t get taken care of in our family. So when that person shows up, we have this huge, not only love, but infatuation with this person is finally somebody who’s going to take care of us that way.

But. Because [00:50:00] often do resemble the people that hurt us in the beginning. They’ll do something similar. And then these protectors jump in, they want to run away or they want to push the person away or when you have these very vulnerable, needy eggs on house, and you’re going to have pretty extreme protectors and that’s going to block.

Long term and make it very hard in any kind of relationship. So one thing you can do is if you can become the primary caretaker to your own exiles, then your partner can be the secondary one. Most of us have that reverse. Most of us want our partners to be the primary one. Does that make any sense? 

Melissa: A hundred percent.

Yes. This really can support every area of your life. And I really want to encourage everybody to dive deep into it, to explore it. And I just want to so much for sharing everything, for all the incredible work that you are doing in the [00:51:00] world for taking me through a couple of sessions. It was really powerful and I’m so grateful you are helping so many people with your books, your work, everything you are serving so many people.

So I want to know how I and the listeners can give back to you today. How can we serve you? 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I guess just give it a try. Check it out. It’s helpful. That’s what I’m here to do. 

Melissa: Well, I’m so grateful for your work. Truly so grateful. And this has been such a delight. And I’ve wanted to have you on for so long.

So long. You’ve been on my dream list for so long. So I’m so glad that we finally got to do this. This has just been such a treat 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: for me as well. And I know we tried a couple of times and had to shift. So I’m really glad it finally happened. Someday I’ll get down there and maybe connect. 

Melissa: Absolutely. I would love that so much.

That would be beautiful. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a treat, beautiful way to start my day. Thank you for being here. 

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Thank you, Melissa.[00:52:00] 

Melissa: I hope you got so much out of this. I truly think that this is such important work. It has changed my life and it is now how Nick and I speak to each other. You know, we will say there’s a part of me that feels hurt or there’s a part of me that feels triggered. And this is what I teach inside SheLaunch.

You know, there’s no big grand statements like I feel. It’s like, there’s a little part of me that feels triggered and it has literally changed so much for me. And I really hope that you dive deep into it. You can find a practitioner, read his books, dive into his work. It is incredible. And if you did get a lot out of this conversation, please follow the show.

And if you haven’t already, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts, send me a screenshot of the review on Instagram, and I will send you a little gift and come on over to Instagram at Melissa Rambrosini and tell me what you got from this episode. I absolutely love connecting with you and hearing from you.

And before I go, I just wanted to say, thank you so much for being here. For wanting to be the best, the healthiest, and the happiest version [00:53:00] of yourself and for showing up today for you. You rock. Now, if there’s someone in your life that you can think of that would really benefit from this episode, please share it with them right now.

You can take a screenshot, share it on your social media, email it to them, text it to them. Do whatever you’ve got to do to get this in their ears. And until next time, don’t forget that love is sexy, healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word.

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