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Is it possible to break free from these inherited behaviors?

And how can we heal those old wounds to transform the way we live and love?

To answer these pivotal questions, I’m joined by the brilliant Vienna Pharaon, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the author of The Origins of You, who’s back for her second appearance on the show.

In this deeply enlightening conversation, we delve into the concept of ‘family of origin’ — the family and framework you grew up within — and how it impacts every aspect of your life, often in ways you might not realize. Tune in to learn: how to identify and address the wounds from your past, the vital importance of truly feeling your emotions, how to begin your healing process, powerful strategies to rebuild self-trust when you’ve let yourself down, and why your past does not need to define your future.

So if you’re seeking to understand yourself on a deeper level, break free from unhealed wounds, and liberate the way you live and love, then press play now… this one’s for you.

About Vienna Pharaon

Vienna Pharaon is a licensed marriage and family therapist and one of New York City’s most sought after relationship therapists. She has practiced therapy for over fifteen years and is the founder and owner of the group practice, Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy. She received her Master of Science in Marriage & Family Therapy from Northwestern University, and trained extensively at The Family Institute, Bette D. Harris Center.

Pharaon has been featured in The Economist, Netflix, Vice, and Motherly, and has led workshops for Peloton and Netflix, amongst others. Her book The Origins of You is a National Bestseller.

In this episode we chat about:

• Understanding your ‘family of origin’ and the five core wounds we all need to heal (02:59) 
• How to identify your past hurts so that you can begin to heal them (10:25)
• The critical importance of feeling our feelings (20:57)
• Powerful strategies to rebuild self trust when you’ve let yourself down in the past (26:44)
• The must-read book she recommends to elevate your relationships and love bravely (41:52)
• The daily habits and routines that set her up for success (43:56)

Episode resources:

• SheLaunch (join here)
• Mastering Your Mean Girl by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Open Wide by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Comparisonitis by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Time Magic by Melissa Ambrosini and Nick Broadhurst (book)
• The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love by Vienna Pharaon (book)
• Fighting Fast, Thriving Relationships & Overcoming Trauma with Vienna Pharaon (podcast)
• Loving Bravely: Twenty Lessons of Self-Discovery to Help You Get the Love You Want by Alexandra H. Solomon (book)
• Vienna Pharaon (Instagram)

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The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy.

Melissa: [00:00:00] In episode 607 with Vienna Farron, we are talking about the five core wounds or traumas that most people experience, how to build deep self trust and discernment, plus so much more. Welcome to the Melissa Ambrosini Show. I’m your host, Melissa, best selling author of Mastering Your Mean Girl, Open Wide, Comparisonitis, and Time Magic.

And I’m here to remind you that love is sexy, healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word. Each week I’ll be getting up close and personal with thought leaders from around the world, as well as your weekly dose of motivation so that you can create epic change in your own life. And become the best version of yourself possible.

Are you ready beautiful? Hey beautiful, welcome back to the show. I’m so excited about this episode because this is Vienna’s second [00:01:00] time on the show and she has such a wealth of knowledge. And for those of you that have never heard of her, she is a licensed marriage and family therapist and one of New York City’s most sought after relationship therapists.

Now she has practiced therapy for over 15 years and is the founder and owner of the group practice, mindful marriage and family therapy. She received her master’s of science in marriage and family therapy from Northwestern University and trained extensively at the Family Institute Center. She has also been featured in The Economist, Netflix, Vice, and Motherly, and has led workshops for Peloton and Netflix amongst so many others.

And her book, The Origins of You, how breaking family patterns can liberate the way that we live and love is out right now. And for everything that we mentioned in today’s episode, you can check out in the show notes, and that’s over at melissarambrosini. com forward slash 607. Now, without further ado, let’s bring on the incredible Vienna.[00:02:00] 

Vienna, welcome back to the show. I’m so excited to have you here, but before we dive in, can you tell us what you had for breakfast this morning? 

Vienna: Oh my gosh, I had oatmeal with goji berries, cacao nibs, chia seeds, some other goodness sprinkled on. My son really loves having oatmeal in the morning now and like mixes all of his things together.

And so we just put one in, in the mix together and chow down. Yum. So delicious. Oh, how old’s your little boy? He’s three and a half, and I am currently 37 weeks pregnant, so I’m ready to pop with number two pretty soon here. 

Melissa: Well, my daughter’s three and a half too, so that’s so beautiful. Yeah, it’s a 

Vienna: really fun age.

Melissa: Yes. It’s so sweet. It’s so sweet. Oh, and congratulations. I’m so excited for your next baby. That’s beautiful. 

Vienna: Yeah. Thank 

Melissa: you. 

Vienna: We’re 

Melissa: excited. [00:03:00] Babe, welcome back. In our last conversation, which was episode 305, it was called Fighting Fast, Thriving Relationships and Overcoming Trauma. And we dove deep into relationships.

We spoke about the truth about love that lasts. And you gave us some practical strategies to strengthen our relationships. And we went so deep into healing emotional traumas once and for all, and especially so that we don’t pass this on to our kids. Now, 100 percent everyone needs to go and listen to that episode.

It was so good, and I’ll link to it in the show notes. But today I want to focus on ourselves and your book, The Origins of You, how breaking family patterns can liberate the way that we live and love. Now in this book, you unlock a healing process to help people understand their family of origin, which is the family and the framework we grew up within.

And you examine what worked and what didn’t in that system. Now [00:04:00] this is so important because these unhealed pain or these unhealed wounds in that family of origin will manifest in our adult behaviors in the most surprising crazy wild ways from work challenges to interpersonal struggles. And you say our past might create our patterns.

We can change those patterns for the better with the right tools. And the good news is, is that when you are armed with the knowledge about our past, we can actually rewire our programming to meaningfully improve our relationships and our lives. Like right now and in the future. So can you tell us exactly how we do this?

What is your framework that you teach in the book? I want to know because I know so many people experience this. I think everybody experiences this. So what is the framework that you teach? 

Vienna: Yeah, so the, the invitation is for us to look back in order to, to move forward. And I know a lot of people have a lot of feelings about that sometimes where it’s like, okay, I’m coming into therapy with [00:05:00] the thing that I want to talk about.

And I just want to focus on what’s playing out in my life today or in my relationship today. And my work always brings us back to, you know, our childhoods and really understanding the foundational aspects there. I will always tell people, when we turn back, we’re not trying to get stuck there. Okay, we don’t need to spend forever there.

There’s a lot of stuff that comes up for people when they think about going back. You know, they’re worried about opening up Pandora’s box. They worry about sounding like they’re complaining and that they’re not actually grateful for what their parents or their caretakers provided for them. They feel like other people have it way worse.

Then they did. And so they feel like this comparison game, like I should just be happy with the life that I had. Right. And the list can go on and on and on. Right. Like their grandparents were way worse to their parents and their parents were to them. It’s endless. And so I want to invite people into this exploration.

Not because we’re going on some wild goose [00:06:00] chase, not because we’re trying to throw people under the bus, not because you need to hate anybody, not because of any of that, but because we are needing to acknowledge our story. We’re needing to actually. honor the things that happened in our lives. I also use the word wounds in the book and I talk about five origin wounds that we’ll get into.

But I think it’s very important because a lot of times when we’re talking about this topic, we’re using the word trauma, which has become much more popular as of recent. And what I have noticed in people is that a lot of folks will exit the conversation when you start to talk about trauma. That might be because they’re like, I didn’t have trauma.

And so I don’t really belong in this conversation or somebody else’s story is way worse than my story. So I don’t have a right to say that something was hard in comparison to what they might’ve gone through. And so wounds for me felt like a very approachable word. I think it’s one that we think about physically more than we do emotionally, but there’s a bridge [00:07:00] there of the emotional wounds that we face throughout our lives.

And when I sat down to write the book, I was scribbling down, like, what are all the different wounds that, you know, we might come face to face with? And obviously I’ve worked with individuals, couples, families for over 25, 000 hours of direct clinical work with folks. And so I have a pretty good understanding of the, you know, the human experience when it comes to pain and, and hurt.

What I came up with is the worthiness wound, prioritization wound, belonging wound, trust wound, and safety wound. That’s my language. That’s the framework. There might be other words that resonate or land for other folks. Great. Use the language that works for you. But those five really felt like they encompassed our human experience.

And this is where we have a first experience that is significant enough for us that changes the way that we relate to our worthiness, that changes the way that we relate to our sense of belonging, that changes the way that we [00:08:00] relate to feeling like a priority to the important people in our life, that changes the way that we trust each other.

the people around us or trust ourselves or feel safe or secure in the world. And sometimes these are really big events and sometimes they’re really subtle. You know, I think sometimes when we’re in this work, we’re like, Oh, like what’s the big thing that happened that was so disruptive and was such a big rupture in our lives.

And sometimes that happens. Of course it does. But there’s also the subtleties. There’s one example I give in the book in the prioritization chapter where I’m talking about a client of mine, his alias is Andre in the book, and he has a single mama working multiple jobs, no other parent in the picture, and he respects her and loves her so, so much.

It’s very clear in our conversations and in his mind, he sees her sacrifice, right? Like she is doing everything she possibly can in order to provide a [00:09:00] good life for him. And that was his rationalization of what was going on here. She would work. doubles every single day except for Sundays. They would go to church together in the morning, have brunch afterwards, and then she’d go off to her shift.

And it took some time for him to get to a place to say that what was still painful, even though he could understand what was happening and what was going on and why she was doing what she was doing, he still wanted to be and feel part of it. prioritized through time spent with her, which was just not available.

And so it’s so important for us to be able to acknowledge what our experiences are, even when there isn’t something that is malintended or negligent or abusive or, you know, anything that I think maybe stands out to us more clearly is that we’re able to honor and acknowledge our experience when there’s something there that It has been hurtful or painful or harmful to us.[00:10:00] 

It’s just one of those examples where it’s more in the subtleties of what is happening within the family system, but it still has an impact on the person and it still has a hold on them when it comes to their present day lives. 

Melissa: Yes. A hundred percent. So we need to kind of like stop judging the traumas, stop judging them as big traumas, little traumas.

If it has an effect on you, that is a trauma. Yeah. So, do we all have all of them, to varying degrees? How do we know if we do? And then what do we do about it? Is awareness just enough? 

Vienna: Awareness is not just enough, unfortunately, if only, right? Some people do have all five. I’ll get DMs every once in a while, it’s like, is it possible to have all five wounds?

It is possible to have all five wounds. It is. also possible to really resonate with one more than another or have a couple, right? Like I, you know, when I think about my origin stories, right? There’s a, there’s a few that stand out to me, but there’s other ones that I don’t identify with as much. [00:11:00] That said, we are relational beings.

And so even if you don’t have a belonging wound, let’s say, or a safety wound, your partner might. Your sibling might, your dear friend might, your parent might, your adult child might, right? And so part of this book is not, of course, I think the first time that you read it or you listen to it, you are doing it for yourself, but maybe the second time that you read it or listen to it, you’re really thinking about the very important people in your life as well.

And you’re considering how we are relational beings around these wounds. And so, yes, I don’t want people to, like, check out of certain chapters because they don’t think that it resonates with them. Because my guess is that you are going to know someone, even if it is not yourself, who has one of these wounds.

And so, yeah, we can have one, we can have all five. And I know that that can sometimes feel very overwhelming, but I think there’s going to probably be ones or stories within the book that really resonate with each [00:12:00] individual that’s going to feel like an invitation to explore a little bit further. 

Melissa: Yeah.

Okay, cool. So once we have the awareness that, oh, okay, I realized that I have this one, what’s the framework? How do we move past it? 

Vienna: So, I walk people through an origin healing practice in the book, and again, of course, that awareness, that acknowledgement that, oh yeah, like, this is a wound, right? This is something that has impacted me.

And what I’ll say is, one of the ways to know whether or not you have a wound is to is based on the unwanted patterns in your adult life today. So for example, if you have any pattern that continues to play out, no matter how hard you try, I’m not going to keep pursuing emotionally unavailable people. I promise the next time I get into a conflict with my partner, I’m going to do it differently.

The next time I need to set a boundary, I’m definitely going to set a boundary. And then we don’t, right? Like these things that we so commonly say we’re going to do and we mean well, and we know better. Quote unquote, but then the [00:13:00] moment comes and somehow we can’t follow through on it. That’s a pretty good indicator that there is something from the past that has a bit of a hold on us, right?

It’s pain’s way. I always say unwanted patterns are pain’s way of grabbing for our attention, right? They’re like pulling on our coattails saying, would you turn around and look back at me and spend some time here and acknowledge me so that I can release my grip on you. So we’re looking for those unwanted patterns.

If you have any in your life right now and I feel like most humans would raise their hand to that. then that’s a pretty good indicator that we want to do this work. When we can identify a wound or many wounds, the next part of this is to witness and to grieve. And I should say that this origin healing practice is not one of those things that you do on a weekend and then you’re done.

You know, this is lifetime work. This is work that we come back to over and over and over again. And so I want to really. set the bar for us as we’re listening to this, because it’s not like a, okay, follow these four steps. And then [00:14:00] all of a sudden everything is resolved, right? This is something that takes time.

That takes practice. We are strengthening a muscle over and over and over again, and this will be lifetime work. So I always say when stuck, grieve more. A lot of times we try to just move ourselves through something and we’d white knuckle our way there. And I think especially when we’re kiddos, right, like what happens is we just survive our way through whatever it is that’s playing out.

We’re not five years old sitting down and saying, I should probably witness myself or I should probably grieve or I should probably acknowledge this. No, we are surviving. And so when I think about. what healing actually is. To me, it’s about moving from survival to choice. And that is what this process is, is that when we allow ourselves to not just acknowledge what the pain was But to then bear [00:15:00] witness to it, to then allow ourselves to grieve alongside of it, and we’ll, I’ll go a little deeper into it.

But when we do that, what happens is we are expanding the space. There’s a quote that is attributed to Viktor Frankl. Maybe you’ve heard it before about between stimulus and response, right? There is this pause, there is this space. And when I think about this healing work, When we witness and grieve, we expand and extend that space so that we are face to face with a new choice.

The last part of the origin healing practice is the pivot, right, is choosing differently than the way that I have chosen before. Especially when the way that I have chosen before has led me to these unwanted patterns, right? This, you know, maybe this dysfunction in my life, this thing that keeps me looped and the thing that I really want to change or that I wish was different.

But we can’t just power our way through. It hasn’t worked for us. I always say like, if you could, you [00:16:00] would, we’re smart people, we’re intelligent, we understand lots of things, we can connect lots of dots. And so when we can’t change behavior, no matter how hard we try, it’s not because we’re lazy, it’s not because we’re dummies, it’s not because of any of that, right?

It’s because there’s something that hasn’t been witnessed and there’s something that has to be grieved more. So when I think about. You know, my parents went through a nine year divorce process that was highly conflictual. That was, there was a lot of gaslighting, manipulation, paranoia, psychological abuse.

It’s a really hard thing to be a part of and to witness. And I’m an only child. And so I was this little tiny human in a family system that was crashing and burning around me. And I didn’t have anybody else. to really talk to about what was going on. And so I was this tiny human just observing, you know, these dynamics playing out.

And because there was so much manipulation and gaslighting and psychological abuse, and that was from my dad to my mom, I, Really try to like [00:17:00] track what was true and what was not true. And one of the ways that I would do that that I remember as a kid is that I would either sit at the top of the stairs in my mom’s house and there was a little opening to the downstairs and I would, I could listen in to the conversations.

Or I would pick up the second line in the house, like the second phone upstairs, and when they were screaming, I would pick it up in that moment so they couldn’t hear the click, and I would listen in to their conversations. And when I think about myself, you know, the age that this was happening, that I recall, it was like seven, eight, nine.

So I have this image of seven, eight, nine year old me. And so the witnessing part, when I began doing some of this work was to really close my eyes and bring this image of seven, eight, nine year old me into focus. This little girl who was all alone perched atop the steps in that bedroom on the second phone listening in to conversations that I obviously should not have been listening into and things that I didn’t really need to hear.

But at that time [00:18:00] felt like I needed to know what was true and because I couldn’t trust it. the adults, I really needed to find the answers myself. And it’s potent when you bring an image like that forward for yourself, because I can see it on your face and you know, you have, I think you said you have a daughter, maybe not quite seven, eight, nine yet.

But I think when we. Oh, we were so tender with these tiny little souls. And when we can remember ourselves in that way, there is something that is so tender and fragile about it. And it does bring emotion forward for us, regardless of whether we have children or we don’t. And. For me, it was very important to bring that image forward and witness and say, gosh, you know, what it must have been like for her to experience that, to sit in that.

And in that witnessing, right, it’s a, it is an experience of witnessing the self. I also talk about having others witness us too, right? So there’s beauty of in witnessing the self. There is beauty in having someone else witness us [00:19:00] as well, right? So whether that is a partner or a dear friend or a therapist or just someone who is a trusted soul in our lives, that that is something that is just so profoundly healing for us.

When we do witnessing well, what happens is An authentic expression of emotion will often come forward. And that’s what grief is to me. Grief is the authentic expression of emotion that comes forward when we are witnessed. And that doesn’t have to look a certain way. You know, that doesn’t have to be tears or anger.

There’s no manual for it. It’s just whatever it is that presents there for us. And so when we do that work well, Repeatedly long enough that we keep coming back into it that space again between stimulus and response, if [00:20:00] you will, starts to expand. We have a deeper understanding of ourselves. We have a deeper understanding of the ways that we try to protect ourselves relationally and in life.

And when we do that. We give ourselves an opportunity to choose differently than in the moment when the challenge presents itself, in the moment where we’re face to face with, do you want to pursue this person who is emotionally unavailable? Or how might you show up differently in conflict? Or, okay, how do I actually set this boundary differently than I have before?

Because it’s asking us to tolerate something very new and very different. 

Melissa: So I think what a lot of people try to do, and I’ve definitely done in the past, is you bypass that grieving part because it feels too big, or too scary, or is it going to swallow me whole? You know that feeling? So how can we embrace that?[00:21:00] 

the grief. What do you do? How do you embrace it? 

Vienna: Yeah, I’m so glad that you’re saying that because it is a common thing that actually shows up in therapy when I speak to people and we are, we’re doing some of this work where it’s like, ah, like I’m really scared to enter into that space. Especially if folks have ever struggled with depression before where they’re like, I am worried about losing myself in that space.

And so, yeah, we really have to either go very slowly and really try to create that space. enough safety where we can enter in our just a toe, you know, just a toe at a time because I think this idea that we are going to be totally engulfed by it is something that would have most people want to avoid it at all costs.

Now, what I said before, and I think, you know, to your point, most of us, we want to try to bypass that part. It’s funny. I was on an interview earlier today and she was like, do we have to grieve though? Is there any way that we can do this without the grieving part? And [00:22:00] you know, lovingly, no, right? Lovingly no, because we need to feel.

You know, we need to feel we need to have that be something that is expressed. And so oftentimes, if we have the resources to do something like this, obviously working with a trained professional is highly recommended because there is enough safety in that space where someone’s like, I can hold it. I can hold it with you.

Whatever it is that you have to share, whatever it is that you have to express, it’s not too much for me. I’ve got it. And we’re just going to go a little bit in and then we’re going to come out. I think the hope writing this book was a way to guide people and lead people in this space too. You know, throughout the book in the origin healing practice, I am guiding people through how to move through this.

So you feel like I’m, I know it’s a book, but it feels like I’m right there with you, right? I’ve got you. And I think with the audio book, it’s really nice because, you know, you hear my voice [00:23:00] and hopefully it is soothing to people. There’s a container that is So, one thing that people can do is essentially in this titration of, okay, like, might you enter in for 60 seconds?

Can you let yourself feel for 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 90 seconds, set a timer for yourself and then go out into nature or, you know, Pick something back up again that you were doing before or go for a run or move your body or pick up your camera and go take photos of something that is inspiring for you, right?

To just give yourself a little test, a little taste of it to see, okay, What was that experience like for me? Can I manage this, right? Can I tolerate this? Is this something that I can handle? And I think when we start small like that, we start to build up that muscle that says, okay, all right. I was able to touch that thing for 30 seconds.

Um, okay. Maybe next time I will [00:24:00] extend that another 30 seconds and see what that’s like for me. So again, this building up of that muscle is really important here, but absolutely acknowledge that it can feel entirely overwhelming to do that. It’s interesting, you know, people will often talk about like, Okay, but if I name the thing or if I go there, it’s going to get worse.

I am of the belief that it’s the opposite of that. Again, I’ve worked with so many people and I’ve done this myself and it’s not to say that it is easy to enter into our emotional experience, but there’s something that is deeply, deeply relieving. That actually happens when we do that, right? This idea that, oh, if we name the thing, it’s going to give it power.

You know, it’s like, no, no. When we name the thing, when we allow ourselves to feel and experience, that’s the thing that gives us the power back. And so I think a lot of times we have that confused and mixed up. 

Melissa: Mm. Yes. Yesterday morning, I did my meditation. So I do a 20 minute meditation in the [00:25:00] morning, and then I finish with some visualization and prayer.

And as I was praying, I was handing over this particular situation that I was experiencing in my life, and I just started crying. And I just allowed it to be there. And I was like, Whoa, that kind of took me by surprise. I wasn’t expecting that to happen. And I just allowed it to be there. And it literally probably only lasted 20 seconds of deep sobs, and then it was released.

And that’s the thing. And I speak about this a lot in my books is like these feelings, they only last like 60 seconds. Sometimes it’s like a wave, but we have to let it wash over us. You cannot try and stop a wave. This is the thing, like, have you ever tried that? You’re like, you can’t physically stop a wave.

It’s going to wash over you. And it’s either going to tumble you over or you can learn how to swim through it. And that’s something that I’ve like just embraced over the years is like opening my arms wide to the wave and going, okay, I’m just [00:26:00] going to let this wash over me. And I did it in that situation.

I was really quite proud of myself afterwards because it really did. lift a lot of the pain that I was feeling around this particular situation. So I just want to encourage everybody and remind everyone that these emotions, they may feel like they’re going to be a tsunami, but they’re literally just a wave.

And they may only last 20 or 30 seconds. And then we can feel lighter and move forward with our life. So I think it’s so important that we deal with whatever is coming up for us, and you know, you speak a lot about this, whatever we don’t heal gets passed on to our children, so we want to take that responsibility.

But something you talk a lot about is self trust, and I want to just talk about that, because there’s different experiences in our life that can strip away that self trust. And people might be thinking, well I trust myself, yeah of course I do, but like when you really dig down, maybe that person [00:27:00] is still looking left and right at what so and so think.

Even me, like I often find myself looking to my husband for the green light. In business and in life. And I’m like, why did I just not trust myself fully in that moment? And sometimes it’s just habitual. And sometimes there’s like a deep wound there. I want to talk about how we can start to really rebuild our self trust so that we’re in a place of just so much certainty within ourselves.

And I know for me, for the first time in my life, three and a half years ago, I felt like, I had no trust in myself because I was a first time mom. And I was like, what do I do? And I was looking at everybody else. I was reading books and I was listening to podcasts. And I was like, well, they’re doing it. And it took my husband saying to me, babe, what do you believe?

Go inward, trust yourself. You know her better than anybody else knows her. And [00:28:00] it was just a light bulb moment for me where I was like, I didn’t even realize I wasn’t trusting myself. Yeah. And then I was like, Oh my goodness, of course I’m not. And so it was such a nice coming home and really flexing that self trust muscle.

But I want to know, how can we start to rebuild this and act of discernment? I would love your thoughts on this. 

Vienna: Well, I think one of the places to start is to understand what it is that strips the self trust away from us in the first place, and from a family systems lens, right, which is the lens that I tend to look through.

I think there’s a lot of scenarios for kiddos and teenagers. where we, I believe that our relationship with our intuition and our gut is really strong when we enter the world. But what happens is that people, often the adults in our lives, will challenge what it is that we are seeing, feeling, [00:29:00] experiencing, and tell us that that’s not true.

And again, this isn’t necessarily because they’re trying to damage us. It could be because someone is absolutely lying to us or gaslighting or manipulating. But a lot of times it’s parents are, and the adults are like really doing their best. They may say, no, you’re not hurt when you are hurt, you know, or something as simple as that.

Melissa: A common one is you’re okay. My dad used to say that to me and I used to get so frustrated and I’m like, don’t tell me how I am. And I remember Nick, he did this once to Bambi. I think she fell over or something. And he went, you’re okay. And like not in the moment, but later that night I said, you are never to say that again to her.

Don’t tell her how she feels. Let her express, you know, if she hurts herself, you let her express for as long as she needs. It’s such a common thing for parents to do is you’re okay, up you get, you’re okay. And I’m just like, don’t tell that person how [00:30:00] they feel. 

Vienna: Yeah. And again, that knee jerk reaction, that’s almost always coming from a great place.

Like everything’s going to be okay. Like, I don’t want you to be hurt in this moment. And how do I make it go away? And I make it go away by telling you that you’re going to be fine and okay. Right. And so we know that so many people do that. Another example though, is like, okay, let’s say you grew up with an alcoholic in the home.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as a kid, you’re noticing something’s off in mom, right? And maybe you say, Hey, like, is mom okay? Or what’s going on? And the other, the other parent maybe says, Oh yeah, she’s totally fine. She’s just tired. Right? Obviously, you know, there’s a certain amount of information that maybe feels appropriate to reveal to a child or not.

But I think we look at scenarios like this where I am sensing that something really is off and wrong. Right? I can, I can, I can feel that. And you’re telling me an entirely different story, likely in the name of trying to [00:31:00] protect me from something. But what winds up happening is that it strips us away of our self trust and our ability to say that what I am sensing or what I am seeing is not.

true. It’s the same with family secrets sometimes when they’re withheld from you. You know, a lot of families hold family secrets. It’s a very common thing that happens and sometimes we’re asked to be in on it and part of it and sometimes it’s a family secret that’s kept from us and You could have this gut, this feeling, the sense that something is off, but it’s not actually being revealed or it’s not revealed until later.

And it really shatters something, right? It’s like there, I can, I know that something is here, but people don’t know how to be honest or forthcoming or they don’t know how to navigate their own shame. And so they’re hiding things from me, which is ultimately stripping away at my relationship with intuition or my relationship with self trust.

When we think something [00:32:00] and don’t act on it, or we get a sense of something and then don’t do something about it, those are the things that just rip it away. Going back to your initial question, I think one of the best places for us to start is understanding what took it from us in the first place. What ripped it away, right?

Because the idea of self trust can be really confronting. Even though it sounds nice, we all want to trust ourselves and we want to be able to act on it. But there’s also something that can be devastatingly challenging about it too. Because if I trusted myself, what would I need to do today? If I trusted what my experience is, maybe I would need to follow through on ending that relationship.

If I trusted what it is that I was actually feeling, maybe I would need to leave this job. If I trusted myself, maybe, what is it? Fill in the blank. Right? What is true for your life right now? Because that is a thing that you might be wishing to actually avoid too. Sometimes not trusting ourself serves a function, right?

It’s like, it is [00:33:00] protecting something for you that you don’t feel prepared or ready to face or to look at. or to do something about. And so I think there’s sort of parts to this of understanding what took it from you in the first place, and then maybe understanding what not trusting yourself present day actually is attempting to protect you from.

Melissa: Yeah, it’s so interesting because this happened to me so much in my childhood. There was like, You know, I would hear something and then my mom would say, Oh, it’s nothing. And it’s just, yeah, she’s tired or whatever. And I’m like, I know you’re lying to me. Like I feel it. And we are so intuitive, especially as children.

Like we are so intuitive. I’m like, I can feel that. And that doesn’t feel good in my body. And so I’ve really brought that into my parenting now. Because there is a fine line with children. And for everyone listening who has children or one day wants to have children, like this is really helpful information, but in the Steiner philosophy, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with this Rudolf [00:34:00] Steiner philosophy, but they say you can give information, but don’t want to give too much.

You don’t want the child to go into their head. You don’t want them to get into the head. So you can say, Oh, mommy’s crying because someone hurt her feelings. You don’t have to go into, well, so and so said, like, you don’t have to give too much information that allows the child to go into their head, but you’re not lying to them.

You still just give them enough, like age appropriate enough without going too heady. And that’s definitely something that we do with Bambi. I never lie to her. If something’s happened, I will say, this is it, but just not go too in depth and too into detail about it to get her. Because the most beautiful thing about children is they are so in their body.

They are not in their head, you know, and up until the age of seven, they are in that ethereal body. And we want to keep them in their body as much as possible in the present moment. And every time we kind of talk about the past or the future, or we go into detail about [00:35:00] how something works, that takes them into their head.

So we want to keep them in their body as much as possible. So that’s a little parenting tip that I do. 

Vienna: Yeah, I love that. And where I started with this is, you know, the framework of looking at it through the family of origin, but also we can look at it in our adult lives as well, right? That maybe you were deceived by someone, maybe you were duped by someone, maybe you felt really confident about something and then you found information out later that was so wrong.

It’s so shocking to you and you’re like, how could I have missed this? I speak to people often who are just like, I feel so foolish. You know, I feel foolish that I didn’t know that this was happening right underneath my nose and those are some of the experiences that will just eradicate that relationship with self trust.

Like, I can’t trust myself to see the obvious, right, can just damage us in such a big way. One, yes, we want to look back and [00:36:00] understand if there is an origin story here around that that does strip it away, that maybe needs to be restored and reclaimed. If there’s certain things that have played out in our adult lives as well, important for us to name that.

There’s a real compassion and gentleness that’s so important for us when we’re trying to claim back a sense of self trust. Restoring trust is hard, hard work. I actually think it’s one of the hardest lanes of work that we do. Whether it’s trusting someone else who has betrayed us, or whether it’s trusting ourselves where we feel like we have betrayed ourselves.

And I always say Part of this work is an eyes wide open type of work, which means I’m not just saying, okay, I’m just gonna trust myself moving forward, , that’s probably not gonna work out very well. Right? It’s that the alternative one is not gonna be super successful, right? If we just continue to stay in distrust with ourselves, that’s not gonna get us very far.

But we [00:37:00] do need to come back into a space of discernment, and I think you used that word before. How can I discern? When and with whom there is trust available. And how can I build that up for myself as well? And that’s going to take some time, especially when we feel like our sensor is a little bit off.

But it’s why that other question of what would it mean if I allowed my sensor to come back online? And that’s why I asked that question, what does it serve? What is it protecting if I am not actually in self trust? So when people have scenarios where Something was happening right under their nose or they can’t believe this person betrayed them or deceived them, right?

It’s like, well, maybe we don’t want to know that at the time because what would that require of us if we did? And so part of this is do I have the capacity to be with truth? This is [00:38:00] a hard question to sit with. Do I have capacity to be with truth? Because if I can be with truth, then it means that I require myself then to tolerate what the consequences are around that truth, right?

That if somebody is doing something that doesn’t actually feel aligned for me, what does that mean for us? Right. And so a lot of times, again, that protective mechanism that wants to come in and sort of keep status quo is the thing that is stripping that away over and over and over again. And so that question of, you know, do I have the capacity to be with truth is a, Oh, it’s a gulp.

You know, that’s a big pill to swallow for us listening to say, okay, yeah, like, can I be with it? Because if I can. Then I can begin to rebuild my relationship with trust. If I can’t, then I’m going to continue to struggle with it. 

Melissa: Yeah. As you were speaking, I was reflecting. I feel like [00:39:00] for me, I’m quite good at repairing trust with myself and with my partner.

If there’s a friend who has broken their trust with me, like for me, I find that more work needs to be done there, but I’m quite good at like repairing it with myself and with my husband. So yeah, that was just a little reflection that I had as you were speaking. And I also think, you know, for me, and this is what my friends tell me is like, I’m a very open book and I’m a very trusting, loving, inviting, all welcome type of person.

And that’s a beautiful quality. And it’s also a little bit to my detriment because I let. A lot of people in very quickly. Well, I have in the past, I’m learning this now to be more discerning, but this is something that has definitely been a bit of a lesson for me more so since having my daughter over the last couple of years, like more so the last few [00:40:00] years.

So yeah, it’s a line for me of. How can I still be that true, authentic self of like just being so inclusive and like inviting, you know, there’s always a seat at my table for anybody. And then also being like a little bit more discerning, you know? 

Vienna: Yeah, absolutely. We don’t have to dive into it, but for anybody who relates to what you just said, Said about, okay, it is easier for me to repair it with myself or with my partner than it is for me to repair it with friends, right?

Like to notice where is there more ease with this versus where is there more friction or tension or resistance? Because the resistance is gonna point to something. Whether that’s because you’ve been betrayed by friends in the past and there’s, you know, there’s something historical there or not, right?

But I think there’s probably a deeper sense of safety trust, you know, with you and maybe with your, with your husband, where when there is. some type of misstep or, you know, thing that, that ruptures in that space that you actually know how to repair and how to come [00:41:00] back from it versus maybe in other dynamics where there’s more to it than that.

And so for anybody who’s listening to be like, Oh, I can do this really well with this person, but I really struggled to do it over here. That’s an invitation for some curiosity for sure. 

Melissa: Absolutely. And it’s like, okay, so is maybe that other person a bit more closed? And that’s why you don’t feel like that trust is there.

It’s an opportunity to inquire and go within. So I love this so much. And I think it’s so important. That’s such an important topic. And I really want everyone to stop and go within and just like evaluate their self trust right now. Like give it a score out of 10. Like where do you sit on the scale? Like do you fully trust yourself in all areas of your life or go through the different areas?

Let’s really strengthen that self trust muscle. Now I’ve asked you this question before. I want to shift gears a little bit and re ask it. And you can put your book in the [00:42:00] curriculum too, but if you did have a magic wand and you could put one book in the school curriculum, what book would you choose?

Yours definitely can be in there. I think it’s such a powerful book. What is one other book you would choose? 

Vienna: Yeah. Okay, sure. I’ll, of course I’ll throw Origins of You in there. I think it’s a phenomenal read and really digestible. I also really love my colleague, Dr. Alexandra Solomon’s book, Loving Bravely, and that I think also has the framework.

She was a professor of mine at Northwestern back in the day, who’s become a colleague and a dear friend of mine. And I think she does a beautiful job of breaking down the family of origin and the family system and past stuff, but also how it plays out in present and how we can love. better. You know, how we can love bravely.

And she’s also been the most popular, uh, elective in university here in the States, which is, was once called Marriage 101, maybe is now called Relationships 101. But I think this idea of [00:43:00] putting relationships into the curriculum is so important. such a powerful and important piece and component to building the skill sets that are really necessary for our kids and our teenagers.

And so when you say like, yeah, that age range, like sure, you know, mathematics can be important. And also might we learn the skill set. to having healthy and healing and long lasting relationships in our lives. And I think maybe hopefully we’re moving in that direction of seeing more and more of that in the curriculum.

I know they start teaching kids now like meditation and breathing, right? Like these like emotional intelligence, like how we bring that into the conversation and something that our children are learning, you know, day in and day out. So, okay, I’ll throw that book in there as well. 

Melissa: Yeah, that’s beautiful. I love that.

I’ll link to it in the show notes as well as your book. Now, I want to shift gears and look at you and how you run your life [00:44:00] and your daily rituals. Can you talk us through a quote unquote typical day in your life? The little rituals you do, like meditation. I want to know everything. And you’ve got a three and a half year old and you’ve got another one on the way.

Can you talk us through a quote unquote typical day? 

Vienna: Well, it certainly has changed a little bit now that I am so pregnant. So I’m very grateful. I’m sleeping in a little bit more in the mornings right now, which is so nice. My husband wakes up earlier with code, our son. And so I get a little bit of extra time in the morning because mama is needing it right now, this pregnant, but the mornings are really important for me.

I’m someone who really likes to play with senses. And so, smell and touch and sound, right, those types of things are really important when it comes to nurturing myself and grounding in, whether that’s the morning or whether that’s the evening. So, lighting Palo [00:45:00] Santo or lighting some sage or, you know, sort of just all of the things bringing the home to a place that feels grounding for me is really important.

I often will put music on in the morning that’s just like a meditation soundtrack and we all listen to it and that’s something that’s really grounding for us. We are also very grateful to get to live in nature and so just stepping outside and listening to the birds in the morning and just being present with that is so deeply powerful for me.

We have some instruments in the home, too. And, you know, playing those instruments as a family can be really lovely and grounding. And so, yeah, that type of stuff in the morning is really powerful. I find nature to be one of the most healing things for me, unsurprisingly. But, yeah, just like walking outside, getting that sun, Sunshine listening to the birds, like how many different sounds can you hear in this moment or [00:46:00] somebody once told me that they were on a walk, like doing a walking meditation and a little girl was with them and she said, how many different sounds can you hear right now?

What a great question. Right? And I love that. And I sort of pull that in of like, how many different sounds are present right now? Right? What can I hear? Right? Even if it’s my, even if it’s my child screaming, it doesn’t always have to be the most soothing of things, right? But just like, what do I notice?

And so I love that for a walking meditation, you know, through the trees and the forest that we have here. Especially being pregnant, I’ve noticed myself slow down with some of the routines or the rituals that I have. So certain things that I may have not necessarily rushed through before or maybe been distracted by, but it’s just that I’m slowing into them more.

So if I’m taking a bath, but then I’m, you know, doing Gua Sha or, you know, just [00:47:00] massaging myself and really slowing down. slowing down into those things and being very present with them. I think a lot of times that happens, you know, when you have a little babe inside of you too, right? It’s like there’s a deep slowing down and connection and presence to, you know, who is within you, who’s literally inside of you right now.

And so I’m just noticing the slowing down of some of those routines. I’m not drinking caffeine right now, but like creating. little drinks or things like that, that are just like nourishing and soothing and warming for my soul, you know, like those are the types of things that are super helpful. And then, you know, when I said before, like, like touch fabric, you know, it’s like at the end of the day, you know, it’s, It’s very different than, you know, before COVID.

I work from home now most of the time. Before I was in New York City and I had a walking commute of about 15 minutes and I was like, okay, I’m de [00:48:00] rolling, you know, R O L E. E, right? I’m derolling during this time and then I’d walk into the apartment and I’d take my work clothes off and then put different clothes on.

It was different fabric and then, you know, maybe the music was going, et cetera, et cetera. And now my commute is just up two flights of stairs from my office to where my husband and son are. And yet there’s still a need to deroll and go through all of those things as we transition from one thing to the next.

So, yeah, gosh, I love, you know, Um, yoga and meditation and some intentional breath and again, being out in nature and just slowing into the things that are supportive for, yeah, just my overall, my overall wellness movement is something that’s really important for me too. 

Melissa: Beautiful. I love that so much. Now I have three rapid fire questions for you.

Are you ready? 

Vienna: All right, I’m ready. 

Melissa: Let’s do it. What’s one [00:49:00] thing that we can do for our health today? 

Vienna: Go out in nature. I maybe sound like a broken record, but go out in nature for your health today, get the sunlight, sit outside, listen to what is around you, do it from a non distracted way, put your phone down, leave it alone, put it away, like, leave it somewhere else, get off your device, and I’m rambling, but it’s, I’m giving you two, get out in nature, and then put your device away, and really move the distractions aside.

Melissa: Beautiful. I love that. And both of those things are free. So let’s do them. 

Vienna: Yeah. 

Melissa: Okay. Next one. What is one thing that we can do for more wealth in our life? 

Vienna: Connect with the most important people in your life. I think wealth, obviously the way that any, you know, people might define that in different ways, but I think we’re living a very rich life when we have a life that has connection and intimacy in it.

And so to prioritize our relationships, to prioritize [00:50:00] connection is one of the most rewarding and yeah, just like wealthy things that we can do for ourselves. 

Melissa: And what is one thing that we can do for more love in our life? 

Vienna: I think I would say self reflection and ownership and accountability. When we don’t have a relationship with ownership and accountability and responsibility and also, you know, compassion and grace for ourselves is very hard for love and connection and intimacy to enter in.

Those are repellents, right? When we can’t take ownership or responsibility for the things that we need to take responsibility for, we’re putting a wall up. We’re pushing our hand forward. And so if we want to have more love in our lives, then I think, yes, we can. We can have grace and compassion for the human parts of ourselves, but we have to be able to bring ownership and self reflection forward to, and be able to hold ourselves in high enough regard to [00:51:00] say that even in my humanness, I’m deserving and worthy of, of love and connection and to really believe that.

Melissa: Mm hmm. 100%. I love that. That’s so beautiful. Is there anything else that you want to share or any last parting words of wisdom? 

Vienna: Yeah, I think that this work that I talk about in the book is, you know, it is hard work and it’s a heavy lift and, you know, the invitation is to find that space of grace and compassion for self with ownership, responsibility for self as well as for other.

Context is really important, but it’s not an excuse. And our behaviors always make sense when we understand the story. There’s a part at the end of the book, there’s exercise from a psychotherapist, Michael Curran, and he says, I want you to think about your mother as your grandmother’s daughter, and see how that perspective changes things and shifts things.

And again, that’s not an invitation for experience. Excuse making, [00:52:00] but it is an invitation for us to remember that all of us, right, we’re tiny humans in a family system at one point that may or may not have been doing their best at the time, but we’re certainly flawed and imperfect. And when we can remember that everybody has a story and that.

these humans who maybe we see as just adults, right, as opposed to adults who were once children before, right, that that is something that can and often does open something up for us, especially with the people in our lives that we really care about and love. And so if we can start to pull some of that into the equation and into the conversation, what is it that allows for us to change, not just with others, but also with ourselves, or when we can remind ourselves that we were that tiny human once before, too, who went through some things that are worth acknowledging and recognizing.

I think that opens a lot up and softens us to some of the work that we need to do. 

Melissa: Absolutely. [00:53:00] And the work that you are doing is truly helping, serving and supporting so many people. So thank you. And I want to know what I and the listeners can do to give back and serve you today. How can we serve you?

Vienna: Oh, well, that’s a very sweet question. Yeah, I think the best way is, you know, if any of what we talked about resonates, I would invite anyone to pick up a copy of the book or download it if you want, if you enjoy listening instead. But The Origins of You is just a really beautiful book of all of the work that I’ve done both personally and professionally over the last 17 years.

And I think it’s really beautifully written and is this lovely invitation for people to do that. And so that’s one of the best ways to support an author, certainly. So I hope if something does resonate, I would encourage everyone to pick up a copy. 

Melissa: Beautiful. And I’ll link to it again in the show notes, like I mentioned before, and I will link to your Instagram and all of your amazing work.

But thank [00:54:00] you so much for coming back on the show for diving deeper with us and for supporting us on this journey to deeper. Self trust and self love and worthiness. It’s an ongoing process forever and ever. The more tools that we have in our toolkit, the better equipped we are to move through things when they come up.

So thank you so much for being here, for sharing and for all the wisdom and knowledge that you are putting out into the world. We are so grateful. 

Vienna: Thank you for having me. It’s an honor.

Melissa: I hope you got so much out of this episode. I feel. So deeply inspired to allow any emotion, especially grief, just wash over me whenever it comes up. Because we have to feel it to release it. And I feel so inspired more than ever to feel it, to release it, so that I don’t pass this down to my daughter. And I really also feel [00:55:00] inspired to sit with the question of how much I trust myself and to look at any areas of my life where I don’t trust myself, or maybe there’s a little bit of room for more trust.

So I hope you sit with yourself, grab your journal, close your eyes, and just go inward and ask yourself how much you trust yourself. And then when you open your eyes, have a little journaling session and go within. There is always so much wisdom within. So I hope you got a lot out of this conversation.

And if you did, please subscribe and follow the show and leave me a review on Apple podcasts because that means that we can inspire and educate more people together. And it also means that I can keep getting on all of these incredible guests for you. Now come and tell me on Instagram at Melissa Ambrosini, your biggest key takeaway from this episode.

I would love to hear from you. And before I go, I just wanted to say thank you so much for being here, for wanting to be the best, the healthiest and the happiest version of yourself and for showing up [00:56:00] today for you. You rock. Now, if there’s someone in your life that you can think of that would really benefit from this episode, please share it with them right now.

You can take a screenshot, share it on your social media, email it to them, text it to them, do whatever you’ve got to do to get this in their ears. And until next time. Don’t forget that love is sexy, healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word

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